Transcripts For BBCNEWS Politics 20240702

Really highlights to be in serious trouble. This really highlights the to be in serious trouble. in 3 really highlights the feeling that you are always part of the organisation. I want to get your reaction, you were there when Paula Vennells apologise. What was your reaction to it . Reaction to it . First, you ust suggested i reaction to it . First, you ust suggested i i reaction to it . First, you ust suggested i was i reaction to it . First, you ust suggested i was not reaction to it . First, you ust suggested i was not parth reaction to it . First, youjust suggested i was not part of. Reaction to it . First, you just. Suggested i was not part of it, reaction to it . First, you just i suggested i was not part of it, i was part suggested i was not part of it, i was part of the organisation, because was part of the organisation, because i was part of the organisation, because i had to have my own offices because i had to have my own offices i because i had to have my own offices. I was the Trouble Shooter for the offices. I was the Trouble Shooter for the London South East branch, and operated in many offices. The element and operated in many offices. The elemen. , ,. , � element absolutely, and they werent treatin element absolutely, and they werent treating people element absolutely, and they werent treating people like element absolutely, and they werent treating people like they element absolutely, and they werent treating people like they were element absolutely, and they werent treating people like they were part i treating people like they were part of the organisation, even if they were. ,. ,. , of the organisation, even if they were. ,. , ,. , were. Yes, and when it came to the Horizon Shortfalls were. Yes, and when it came to the Horizon Shortfalls and were. Yes, and when it came to the Horizon Shortfalls and things were. Yes, and when it came to the Horizon Shortfalls and things like i Horizon Shortfalls and things like that, Horizon Shortfalls and things like that, you Horizon Shortfalls and things like that, you had to pay for them. Whatever that, you had to pay for them. Whatever came through, you are responsible. That was the contract, thats responsible. That was the contract, thats the responsible. That was the contract, thats the important thing. The contract thats the important thing. The contract was wrong right at the outset contract was wrong right at the outset. Regarding the apology is, there outset. Regarding the apology is, there have been apologies, remorse, from top there have been apologies, remorse, from top to there have been apologies, remorse, from top to bottom throughout this inquiry. From top to bottom throughout this inquiry, and is going to be very nrany inquiry, and is going to be very many more inquiry, and is going to be very many more to come, but that isjust not enough many more to come, but that isjust not enough. Eventually, i think, many more to come, but that isjust not enough. Eventually, ithink, a full financial compensation, redress payment. Full financial compensation, redress payment, that may settle things, but ithink payment, that may settle things, but i think thats going to take years yet. I think thats going to take years et. ,. , i think thats going to take years et. , yet. Did you believe her apology . There was some yet. Did you believe her apology . There was some emotion yet. Did you believe her apology . There was some emotion there. L yet. Did you believe her apology . I there was some emotion there. There was the moment there was some emotion there. There was the moment she there was some emotion there. There was the moment she started there was some emotion there. Tues was the moment she started crying. There was one part of the inquiry ive there was one part of the inquiry ive heard there was one part of the inquiry ive heard so far today that the royal ive heard so far today that the Royal Mail Group chiefjackie to on the text Royal Mail Group chiefjackie to on the Text Messages that were there, said, the Text Messages that were there, said. I the Text Messages that were there, said, i cannot support you any more, that seems said, i cannot support you any more, that seems to me that it is the fact that seems to me that it is the fact that paula that seems to me that it is the fact that Paula Vennells knew about everything, and it was the fact that there everything, and it was the fact that there was everything, and it was the fact that there was a everything, and it was the fact that there was a lack of communication amongst there was a lack of communication amongst the whole of the ward, which was not amongst the whole of the ward, which was not putting together the Horizon Report was not putting together the Horizon Report altogether, and i think if that points in time, we would not be here today. That points in time, we would not be here today, 15 years later. Here today, 15 years later. Those texts, here today, 15 years later. Those texts. Moya here today, 15 years later. Those texts, moya greene here today, 15 years later. Those texts, moya greene also here today, 15 years later. Those texts, moya greene also sent i here today, 15 years later. Those texts, moya greene also sent as| texts, moya greene also sent as text, simply saying, i think you knew. How does it feel, even the possibility that these executives could have known there were bugs and defects in Horizon It System and not sharing that information with you . That was the final question which was not that was the final question which was not answered. How could you have not known . Was not answered. How could you have not known . As Chief Executive, how could not known . As Chief Executive, how could you not known . As Chief Executive, how could you not have known on those Text Messages . There was no reply to that, that Text Messages . There was no reply to that, that says it all. Understandably, you have a lot of emotion when it comes to this, this is something that happened to you a long time ago and you had to live with all these years. How does it feel to suddenly he in the same room as someone who hasnt broken about this in nearly a decade . This as someone who hasnt broken about this in nearly a decade . This in nearly a decade . This is not ust about this in nearly a decade . This is not just about me. This in nearly a decade . This is not just about me, this this in nearly a decade . This is not just about me, this is this in nearly a decade . This is not just about me, this is about just about me, this is about everybody else. It was so deeply involved everybody else. It was so deeply involved didnt know who to leave out where involved didnt know who to leave out where to turn, and today end of the next out where to turn, and today end of the next few days, ive been coming to the the next few days, ive been coming to the inquiry over time, but to be facetoface to the inquiry over time, but to be face to face with somebody, then you can see exactly what has happened, and you can see exactly what has happened, and you will know that the post office and you will know that the post office knew about all of this, but again. Office knew about all of this, but again. Mr office knew about all of this, but again, mrjason beer ross, was there again, mrjason beer ross, was there a conspiracy again, mrjason beer ross, was there a conspiracy theory, we dont appear to get a conspiracy theory, we dont appear to get an a conspiracy theory, we dont appear to get an answer to that. To get an answer to that. Youre not alone in that to get an answer to that. Youre not alone in that room, to get an answer to that. Youre not alone in that room, there to get an answer to that. Youre not alone in that room, there are i to get an answer to that. Youre not alone in that room, there are other| alone in that room, there are other former Sub Postmasters, victims as well, just like you support . Absolutely. I think this is behind us now. Absolutely. I think this is behind us now, because the inquiry is going to bring us now, because the inquiry is going to bring the us now, because the inquiry is going to bring the truth out eventually. Most to bring the truth out eventually. Most of to bring the truth out eventually. Most of us to bring the truth out eventually. Most of us have retired. Sadly, so many most of us have retired. Sadly, so many have most of us have retired. Sadly, so many have passed away as well, and hopefully many have passed away as well, and hopefully we will get an answer, a final answer to these questions. Brett, final answer to these questions. Brett, knitting pundit, iwill catch up brett, knitting pundit, iwill catch up with you after the next break, as the inquiry starts again. What he was talking about partly as financial redress, but the inquiry is not dealing with financial redress at the moment. There are schemes through which victims can claim cant then take that compensation, but thereve been complaints that system. Alan bates last week rejected his offer of compensation for the second time, saying it was only a third of what you originally asked for. He said the process has been frustrating for him, and its been frustrating for others. The Current Post Office minister has a also conceded in a town hall on the bbc with other former Sub Postmasters that the process is difficult, its taking too long, and he saying he is trying too long, and he saying he is trying to resolve it and amend it so the compensation claims can go through faster, and also one other element thatis faster, and also one other element that is worth mentioning is many victims dont like the word compensation, they say they have simply lost too many years of their lives, gone through too much, bankruptcy, homelessness, prison sentences, impact on their health, and the word compensation simply doesnt cut it for them. Doesnt cut it for them. When you are speaking doesnt cut it for them. When you are speaking to doesnt cut it for them. When you are speaking to your doesnt cut it for them. When you are speaking to your guest, i doesnt cut it for them. When you are speaking to your guest, when| doesnt cut it for them. When you i are speaking to your guest, when you are speaking to your guest, when you are speaking to him there, itjust comes across how stoic. I are speaking to him there, it ust comes across how stoic. I comes across how stoic. I dont know if youre comes across how stoic. I dont know if youre there, comes across how stoic. I dont know if youre there, i comes across how stoic. I dont know if youre there, i cannot i comes across how stoic. I dont. Know if youre there, i cannot hear you right now. Tote know if youre there, i cannot hear you right now you right now. We have a problem with our microphones. You right now. We have a problem with our microphones. The you right now. We have a problem with our microphones. The point l you right now. We have a problem with our microphones. The point i | with our microphones. The point i wanted to make was just how stoic nitin pandit was there speaking about how it is notjust him affected by this. We have to remember, 900 Sub Postmasters wrongfully prosecuted due to this Faulty Software between 1999 and 2015, and the person they have really wanted to hear from, the person that was the head of the post office during a lot of this period was of course Paula Vennells, and today was the first time in nearly a decade that we are hearing from Paula Vennells. She broke down, she became tearful. I hope we can hear now. , � , now. Yes, im ust saying goodbye. He was so store now. Yes, im just saying goodbye. He was so stoic and now. Yes, im just saying goodbye. He was so stoic and saying now. Yes, im just saying goodbye. He was so stoic and saying it now. Yes, im just saying goodbye. He was so stoic and saying it was i he was so stoic and saying it was not just he was so stoic and saying it was notjust him, but 900 postmasters wrongfully prosecuted during this dreadful, dreadful time, i now finally they are here. Its is clear how difficult it is become, people like seema misra, who i spoke to earlier, it brought home how difficult this experience has been for them, given the amount of times theyve had to relive this. I believe the inquiry is redeeming now, so we can listen in. The postmasters and post mistresses having the postmasters and post mistresses having been tempted to put their hand having been tempted to put their hand in having been tempted to put their hand in the tail and treat it like a retaii hand in the tail and treat it like a Retail Industry as some businesses did, they Retail Industry as some businesses did, they have never lost a case, and that did, they have never lost a case, and that whenever horizon had been investigated it has been found not to have investigated it has been found not to have been at fault. We establish none to have been at fault. We establish none of to have been at fault. We establish none of the three things were in the briefing none of the three things were in the briefing prepared specifically for the purposes of this meeting, and i think the purposes of this meeting, and i think you the purposes of this meeting, and i think you said you do these things from think you said you do these things from other think you said you do these things from other sources. Is that right . Yes, from other sources. Is that right . Yes. Thats from other sources. Is that right . Yes, thats right, yes. Gne from other sources. Is that right . Yes, thats right, yes. From other sources. Is that right . Yes, thats right, yes. One of them, i think you yes, thats right, yes. One of them, i think you said, yes, thats right, yes. One of them, i think you said, you yes, thats right, yes. One of them, i think you said, you drew yes, thats right, yes. One of them, i think you said, you drew from i yes, thats right, yes. One of them, i think you said, you drew from a i i think you said, you drew from a board i think you said, you drew from a Board Meeting injanuary of i think you said, you drew from a Board Meeting in january of that year. Board meeting in january of that year, 2012. | Board Meeting in january of that year. 2012. Board meeting in january of that year, 2012. I believe thats right. And we look year, 2012. I believe thats right. And we look at year, 2012. I believe thats right. And we look at that . This is a Board Meeting on the 12th Ofjanuary this is a Board Meeting on the 12th Ofjanuary that year. We can see you are present. Ofjanuary that year. We can see you are present, as is among other people are present, as is among other people susan brighton. Go to page six . And people susan brighton. Go to page six . And the foot of the page . Significant litigation report, and in the significant litigation report, and in the second paragraph it is recorded in the second paragraph it is recorded that it was explained that the Sub Postmasters were taking advantage of the system, with reports advantage of the system, with reports by deloitte. An exam with examine reports by deloitte. An exam with examine than any of that is true, but the examine than any of that is true, but the business had also won every criminal but the business had also won every Criminal Prosecution which it had used Criminal Prosecution which it had used evidence from the and integrity. As i related to what youre integrity. As i related to what youre referring to . It integrity. As i related to what youre referring to . Integrity. As i related to what youre referring to . It is, and as i said earlier. Youre referring to . It is, and as i said earlier, the youre referring to . It is, and as i said earlier, the view youre referring to . It is, and as i said earlier, the view was said earlier, the view was understood in the post office generally. Understood in the post office generally understood in the post office renerall. ,. ,. , generally. What you mean that viewers understood generally. What you mean that viewers understood in generally. What you mean that viewers understood in the i generally. What you mean that viewers understood in the posti generally. What you mean that i viewers understood in the post of his generally . That viewers understood in the post of his generally . His generally . That susan, My Recollection his generally . That susan, My Recollection was his generally . That susan, My Recollection was from his generally . That susan, My Recollection was from seeing l his generally . That susan, My L Recollection was from seeing the documentation, it wasnt a memory, that susan had said that in that Board Meeting, and i dont think it was a surprise when she said it, because it was an understanding in the organisation that this was the case. , the organisation that this was the case,. ,. , the organisation that this was the case. ,. ,. , case. That the post office had a 10096 case. That the post office had a 100 hit case. That the post office had a 10094. Hit rate . Case. That the post office had a 10094. Hit rate . I case. That the post office had a 10096 hit rate . I dont case. That the post office had a 10096 hit rate . I dont think case. That the post office had a 10096 hit rate . I dont think it | case. That the post office had a i 10096 hit rate . I dont think it was mentioned 10096 hit rate . I dont think it was mentioned in 10096 hit rate . I dont think it was mentioned in that 10096 hit rate . I dont think it was mentioned in that way, 10096 hit rate . I dont think it was mentioned in that way, but i 10096 hit rate . I dont think it was mentioned in that way, but yes. L mentioned in that way, but yes. Clearly that was completely inaccurate different ways, as you drew attention before the break. And drew attention before the break. And Ou Heard Drew attention before the break. And you heard her say that . , drew attention before the break. And you heard her say that . , yes drew attention before the break. And you heard her say that . , yes i i drew attention before the break. And you heard her say that . , yes i said i you heard her say that . , yes i said that. You heard her say that . , yes i said that from you heard her say that . , yes i said that. From your you heard her say that . , yes i said that. From your perspective, you heard her say that . , yes i said that. From your perspective, you i that. From your perspective, you were stranded that. From your perspective, you were stranded in that. From your perspective, you were stranded in a that. From your perspective, you were stranded in a former that. From your perspective, you were stranded in a former board | were stranded in a former board rating . Were stranded in a former board rating . We were stranded in a former board rating . We were aware of any system in place rating . We were aware of any system in place for rating . We were aware of any system in place for cases which did not resutt in place for cases which did not result in in place for cases which did not result in a in place for cases which did not result in a conviction . Or in civil cases. Result in a conviction . Or in civil cases. Did result in a conviction . Or in civil cases, did not result in the Sub Postmaster being found liable, to be Sub Postmaster being found liable, to be reported back to the board or a subcommittee of the board . No. That there was a subcommittee of the board . No. That there was a a subcommittee of the board . Firm that there was a system in place a subcommittee of the board . Ida. That there was a system in place for a report that there was a system in place for a report to that there was a system in place for a report to be written, i suspect in the business it would have been called the business it would have been called a the business it would have been called a Lessons Learned report, which called a Lessons Learned report, which it called a Lessons Learned report, which it found out what had gone wrong . Which it found out what had gone wron . � ,. , which it found out what had gone wrona . � wrong . Are you telling me there was are ou wrong . Are you telling me there was are you asking wrong . Are you telling me there was are you asking me wrong . Are you telling me there was are you asking me if wrong . Are you telling me there was are you asking me if i. . Wrong . Are you telling me there was are you asking me if i. . Some i are you asking me if i. . Some seole are you asking me if i. . Some people have are you asking me if i. . Some people have told are you asking me if i. . Some people have told us are you asking me if i. . Some people have told us there i are you asking me if i. . Some people have told us there was, | are you asking me if i. . Some i people have told us there was, that in every people have told us there was, that in every case that we didnt succeed in, in every case that we didnt succeed in. Council in every case that we didnt succeed in, councilwas in every case that we didnt succeed in, council was asked to write a. I in, council was asked to write a. I remember. In, council was asked to write a. I remember, yes. It in, council was asked to write a. I remember. Yes in, council was asked to write a. I remember, yes. A report about what was to beat i remember, yes. A report about what was to beat that i remember, yes. A report about what was to beat that went i remember, yes. A report about what was to beat that went wrong. I remember, yes. A report about what was to beat that went wrong. We i was to beat that went wrong. We found was to beat that went wrong. We found none of them. That was to beat that went wrong. We found none of them. Was to beat that went wrong. We found none of them. That never came to board level. Found none of them. That never came to board level. Was found none of them. That never came to board level. Was there found none of them. That never came to board level. Was there a found none of them. That never came to board level. Was there a system i to board level. Was there a system in lace to board level. Was there a system in place you to board level. Was there a system in place you are to board level. Was there a system in place you are aware to board level. Was there a system in place you are aware of to board level. Was there a system in place you are aware of where i to board level. Was there a systeml in place you are aware of where that would in place you are aware of where that would have in place you are aware of where that would have happened, if the post office would have happened, if the post office had would have happened, if the post office had lost any of its cases . | office had lost any of its cases . I dont believe there was, and they should have been. [10 dont believe there was, and they should have been. Dont believe there was, and they should have been. Do you know how it is that ou should have been. Do you know how it is that you were should have been. Do you know how it is that you were being should have been. Do you know how it is that you were being given should have been. Do you know how it is that you were being given false i is that you were being given false information at the Board Meeting, and in information at the Board Meeting, and in your information at the Board Meeting, and in your account you deployed that six and in your account you deployed that six months later to the parliamentarians . That six months later to the parliamentarians . That six months later to the sarliamentarians . ,. ,. , parliamentarians . Could you repeat the question . Parliamentarians . Could you repeat the question . How parliamentarians . Could you repeat the question . How did parliamentarians . Could you repeat the question . How did it parliamentarians . Could you repeat the question . How did it come i parliamentarians . Could you repeat i the question . How did it come about, in our the question . How did it come about, in your view. The question . How did it come about, in your view, that the question . How did it come about, in your view, that false the question . How did it come about, in your view, that false information i in your view, that false information was perpetuated, regurgitated, deployed in this way . It� s was perpetuated, regurgitated, deployed in this way . Its important to state first deployed in this way . Its important to state first of deployed in this way . Its important to state first of all deployed in this way . Its important to state first of all that deployed in this way . Its important to state first of all that i deployed in this way . Its important to state first of all that i didnt i to state first of all that i didnt believe it was false information, and i dont suppose any board colleague did either. If you are given information, and this is another government lesson, but if you are given information by the highest lawyer in the organisation, you take it completely as the truth, because you assume that lawyers, and i must be clear im not implying anything here at all in terms of Susan Crichton, but one assumes lawyers work to a professional code, and the post office didnt. I think, with hindsight, have sufficient oversight to check whether that was was not the case, so if that statement was made at a Board Meeting, if any statement was made as a Board Meeting, the board would take it as fact and truth. When you got to the meeting of the 18th of when you got to the meeting of the 18th ofjune you were essentially deploying your memory of what had been set deploying your memory of what had been set at this Board Meeting six months been set at this Board Meeting six months earlier . Because tomorrow im sure that months earlier . Because tomorrow im sure that was months earlier . Because tomorrow im sure that was the case. What about the postmasters had been led into temptation . Temptation . That is more difficult to talk about temptation . That is more difficult to talk about the temptation . That is more difficult to talk about the first temptation . That is more difficult to talk about the first thing temptation . That is more difficult to talk about the first thing i i to talk about the first thing i would say is to apologise, because im very aware that was not the case and it was an assumption that i made. That assumption was based on two things, examples of cases where i was told and had seen this in documentation that, in theory, that took place, but my second Evidence Base for that was, during the roll out of the horizon online pilot, every branch had to be audited in terms of its cash position. And we were dealing with 11,000 post offices. The Audit Process would not normally be announced because to do audits the premise was that you went to audit a brunch at a particular moment in time and you found it as it was. As we went into the horizon online roll out, i was in a meeting with George Thompson and assumed we would be doing audits in the same way, which is that auditors would turn up to the branches, do an audit unannounced, as they normally were. He suggested that would be a very foolish thing to do, because there may be any number of branches where the cash might be short. George explained that it wasnt a frequent practice but, infrequently, a postmaster may need to nip down to the wholesaler and may borrow cash from the post of his account and put it back the next day. There was no suggestion by george that that was donein suggestion by george that that was done in terms of theft or fraud or anything like that, but that there was an understanding, he led me to believe, that that was a possibility, and so what the post office should do would be to let, and i thought it was sensible, i was shocked and he explained why, but i thought it was sensible that we should at least let people know that auditors were going. Sol should at least let people know that auditors were going. So i had that also as an Evidence Base, that there was perhaps temptation is too strong a word in some of the cases, but there might occasionally be circumstances where postmasters had borrowed cash with the very honest intention of putting it back and it might not have been there. Is intention of putting it back and it might not have been there. Is there a written record might not have been there. Is there a written record of might not have been there. Is there a written record of what might not have been there. Is there a written record of what youve i might not have been there. Is there a written record of what youve just | a written record of what youve just said . A written record of what youve just said . I a written record of what youve ust said . , � ~ a written record of what youve ust said . , � ,. , said . I dont think so, but it was in a meeting said . I dont think so, but it was in a meeting with said . I dont think so, but it was in a meeting with george said . I dont think so, but it was i in a meeting with George Thompson and Kevin Gillibrand at the time. Can we turn to a related topic of this theme can we turn to a related topic of this theme of whether your intention was to this theme of whether your intention was to protect, whether your priority was to protect, whether your priority was to protect the business . You were involved in correspondence and Decision Making following correspondence and Decision Making following the death of Martin Griffiths, wont you . Following the death of Martin Griffiths, wont you . Yes. By way of background. Griffiths, wont you . Yes. By way of background. Mr griffiths, wont you . Jazz. By way of background, mr griffiths had worked for the background, mr griffiths had worked for the post office in Ellesmere Port in for the post office in Ellesmere Port in cheshire for 20 years and he was acute Port In Cheshire for 20 years and he was acute of Port In Cheshire for 20 years and he was acute of taking, misappropriating, losing £61,000 after the misappropriating, losing £61,000 after the Horizon System had shown a shortfalt after the Horizon System had shown a shortfalt i after the Horizon System had shown a shortfall. ,. ,. , � , shortfall. I understand thats ri. Ht. Shortfall. I understand thats right. Separately, shortfall. I understand thats right. Separately, £60,000| shortfall. I understand thats i right. Separately, £60,000 was stolen from right. Separately, £60,000 was stolen from his right. Separately, £60,000 was stolen from his post right. Separately, £60,000 was stolen from his post of right. Separately, £60,000 was stolen from his post of this i right. Separately, £60,000 was stolen from his post of this in i right. Separately, £60,000 was| stolen from his post of this in an armed stolen from his post of this in an armed robbery, yes . Stolen from his post of this in an armed robbery, yes . Yes, i wasnt aware at the armed robbery, yes . Yes, i wasnt aware at the time armed robbery, yes . Yes, i wasnt aware at the time but armed robbery, yes . Yes, i wasnt aware at the time but there armed robbery, yes . Yes, i wasnt aware at the time but there was i armed robbery, yes . Yes, i wasnt| aware at the time but there was an e mail which detailed some of that which i was copied into. And email which detailed some of that which i was copied into. Email which detailed some of that which i was copied into. And he was alle. Ed to which i was copied into. And he was alleged to be which i was copied into. And he was alleged to be responsible which i was copied into. And he was alleged to be responsible for which i was copied into. And he was alleged to be responsible for that i alleged to be responsible for that loss by alleged to be responsible for that loss by the post office, sustained in the loss by the post office, sustained in the course of the armed robbery, and was in the course of the armed robbery, and was required to repay some of it to the and was required to repay some of it to the post and was required to repay some of it to the post office . | and was required to repay some of it to the post office . To the post office . I understand he shouldnt have to the post office . I understand he shouldnt have been. To the post office . I understand he shouldnt have been. And to the post office . I understand he shouldnt have been. And shortly l shouldnt have been. And shortly afterwards shouldnt have been. And shortly afterwards he shouldnt have been. And shortly afterwards he took shouldnt have been. And shortly afterwards he took his shouldnt have been. And shortly afterwards he took his own i shouldnt have been. And shortly afterwards he took his own life. I shouldnt have been. And shortly i afterwards he took his own life. Can we look afterwards he took his own life. Can we look at afterwards he took his own life. Can we look at poll 0030 1440. And look at the we look at poll 0030 1440. And look at the last we look at poll 0030 1440. And look at the last page, please. If we scroll at the last page, please. If we scroll to at the last page, please. If we scroll to the foot of the page. In fact, scroll to the foot of the page. In fact, its scroll to the foot of the page. In fact, its not signed off. If we scroll fact, its not signed off. If we scroll up fact, its not signed off. If we scroll up a fact, its not signed off. If we scroll up a bit, please. A little bit more. Scroll up a bit, please. A little bit more, and a bit more. We can see the beginning bit more, and a bit more. We can see the beginning of this chain from alan the beginning of this chain from alan bates at two minutes past four on monday alan bates at two minutes past four on monday the 23rd of september, and its to on monday the 23rd of september, and its to you on monday the 23rd of september, and its to you and others. Yes. Mr bates says. Its to you and others. Yes. Mr bates says, this its to you and others. Fez; mr bates says, this afternoon its to you and others. Ies mr bates says, this afternoon i received bates says, this afternoon i received the following e mail, a prime received the following e mail, a Prime Example of the Thuggery Being exerted Prime Example of the Thuggery Being exerted on defensive some postmasters, as the post office and i postmasters, as the post office and i legal postmasters, as the post office and i Legal Representation by arrogant and uncontrolled post Office Personnel despite assurances that this type personnel despite assurances that this type of thing in the past its clear this type of thing in the past its clear from this type of thing in the past its clear from post office bus actions is still clear from post office bus actions is still alive and active through the ranks is still alive and active through the ranks come and then there is the eniait the ranks come and then there is the e mail. Hello, alan. Iwrite a behatf e mail. Hello, alan. Iwrite a behalf of e mail. Hello, alan. Iwrite a behalf of my son in law, Martin Griffiths. Behalf of my son in law, Martin Griffiths, who has really been in touch griffiths, who has really been in touch about the treatment doled out touch about the treatment doled out to him touch about the treatment doled out to him by touch about the treatment doled out to him by the hierarchy at the crown office to him by the hierarchy at the Crown Office In to him by the hierarchy at the Crown Office In chester. He had an armed raid in office in chester. He had an armed raid in may office in chester. He had an armed raid in may and the faceless wonders at Crown Raid In may and the faceless wonders at crown office has indicated he was comparable to how to make the kangaroo comparable to how to make the kangaroo court, where he was not allowed kangaroo court, where he was not allowed any representation. He was a broken allowed any representation. He was a broken man allowed any representation. He was a broken man. He was sent for last friday broken man. He was sent for last friday to broken man. He was sent for last friday to attend a meeting with a crown friday to attend a meeting with a crown Office Personnel again and all weekend crown Office Personnel again and all weekend he has clearly not been himself weekend he has clearly not been himself. This morning he drove to worki himself. This morning he drove to work. Got himself. This morning he drove to work, got out of his car and walked in front work, got out of his car and walked in front of work, got out of his car and walked in front of a work, got out of his car and walked in front of a bus. He is dangerously ill in hospital in liverpool. The post ill in hospital in liverpool. The post office have driven him to suicide post office have driven him to suicide. The family are at the hospital suicide. The family are at the hospital to drop i am alone waiting by the hospital to drop i am alone waiting by the phone for news. I would urge you to by the phone for news. I would urge you to publicise this, another incident you to publicise this, another incident caused by the bully boys at crown incident caused by the bully boys at crown office, may god forgive them. Mr bates crown office, may god forgive them. Mr bates continues, im aware of ms martins mr bates continues, im aware of ms martins case and i know he was terrified martins case and i know he was terrified to martins case and i know he was terrified to raise the shortages because terrified to raise the shortages because of this type of thing, but the post because of this type of thing, but the post office got him in the end. Regardless of what may or may not have occurred with him, why did the post office have occurred with him, why did the post office have to hound him to the Point Post Office have to hound him to the point of post office have to hound him to the point of trying to take his own life. Point of trying to take his own life. Why . Point of trying to take his own life, why . Despite numerous warnings never life, why . Despite numerous warnings never to life, why . Despite numerous warnings never to attend any discussion with post this never to attend any discussion with post this without Legal Representation, martin didnt take anyone representation, martin didnt take anyone with them, as per the conditions demanded by the post Office Conditions demanded by the post office if conditions demanded by the post office. If the post office cant control office. If the post office cant control their personnel, the least they can control their personnel, the least they can do is operate at its it on a Sub Postmaster taking Legal Representation with them. I am very angry representation with them. I am very angry and. Representation with them. I am very angry and, as per the wishes of the family. Angry and, as per the wishes of the family. I angry and, as per the wishes of the family. Iwill angry and, as per the wishes of the family, i will be contacting many of the media family, i will be contacting many of the Media Contacts we have built up with over the Media Contacts we have built up with over the years. Can we look, bieasei with over the years. Can we look, bieasei at with over the years. Can we look, please, at poll 0011, 6133, please. This is please, at poll 0011, 6133, please. This is an please, at poll 0011, 6133, please. This is an e mail chain to a new and susan this is an e mail chain to a new and Susan Crichton which begins on that evening Susan Crichton which begins on that evening the evening of the 23rd of september. Can we look at the bottom of page september. Can we look at the bottom of page one, please . Susan crichton at 9 38bn1 of page one, please . Susan crichton at 9 38pm says, confirm i have spoken at 9 38pm says, confirm i have spoken to at 9 38pm says, confirm i have spoken to alan bates. Explained that the family spoken to alan bates. Explained that the family had been in touch today and asked the family had been in touch today and asked for help in branch, and the supposed matter had been involved the supposed matter had been involved in a car accident. I explain involved in a car accident. I explain and is looking into this and will catch explain and is looking into this and will catch up tomorrow for the alan is wrong will catch up tomorrow for the alan is wrong back and said the message about is wrong back and said the message about the is wrong back and said the message about the car accident is miscommunication and is definitely a suicide miscommunication and is definitely a suicide attempt. We will decide how to deal suicide attempt. We will decide how to deal with this tomorrow the facts are not to deal with this tomorrow the facts are not as to deal with this tomorrow the facts are not as represented by the enraik are not as represented by the enraik if are not as represented by the e mail. If we scroll up, please. We see your e mail. If we scroll up, please. We see your reply at 10 12pm that night see your reply at 10 12pm that night. Thank you for two points from me tonight night. Thank you for two points from me tonight, firstly but most importantly, in the exchanges, i havent importantly, in the exchanges, i havent seen anything about Martin Griffiths havent seen anything about Martin Griffiths is. Do we know, are we in the loop . Griffiths is. Do we know, are we in the loop . If griffiths is. Do we know, are we in the loop . If its an attempted suicide the loop . If its an attempted suicide, as we sadly no, there are usually suicide, as we sadly no, there are usually several Contributory Factors~ usually several Contributory Factors. Are the Police Involved and are we factors. Are the Police Involved and are we in factors. Are the Police Involved and are we in direct contact with the family . Are we in direct contact with the family . At are we in direct contact with the family . At this stage, where were you raising family . At this stage, where were you raising the fact that they were usually you raising the fact that they were usually several Contributory Factors involved . Usually several Contributory Factors involved . The usually several Contributory Factors involved . ,. ,. Usually several Contributory Factors involved . ,. , involved . The first thing to say is, as i said in involved . The first thing to say is, as i said in my involved . The first thing to say is, as i said in my statement, involved . The first thing to say is, as i said in my statement, i involved . The first thing to say is, as i said in my statement, i am i involved . The first thing to say is, l as i said in my statement, i am very sorry about this, and that sounds too shallow. Every e mail you will see from me about mr griffiths, i start with him and how he was or how his family are. The post office took far too long to deal with it and, to answer your question about Contributory Factors, one of the other things that i had to do as Chief Executive was to understand if there were details to understand, i would have to communicate something so serious to the board, and i think i was trying to find out whether there was anything else behind it. I had a personal experience of a Previous Post of his colleague who had taken their own life. I phoned. I phoned the family and i spoke to the father, who explained to me that there were other issues involved, and i imagined. Im sorry Forthe Iimagined and i imagined. Im sorry forthe i imagined that i was probably. Nation rather than trying to talk through it, just pause. Tried nation rather than trying to talk through it, just pause. Through it, ust pause. Tried to com ose through it, just pause. Tried to compose yourself, through it, just pause. Tried to compose yourself, if through it, just pause. Tried to compose yourself, if you through it, just pause. Tried to compose yourself, if you can. Through it, just pause. Tried to l compose yourself, if you can and then compose yourself, if you can and then continue your evidence, please. Thank then continue your evidence, please. Thank you in this particular case, i had spoken to the Sub Postmaster� s father, who had said to me that there were other Contributory Factors in the death of his son and they were grateful for my call. In they were grateful for my call. In the case of mr griffiths, i offered to do the same and i was told by the General Manager of the Crown Offices that that wasnt needed and other people were in the loop. I imagine that what i was doing here in this e mail was recalling that previous incident, but what you will see is that, in every e mail i wrote on this, my first concern was for mr griffiths and his family and, as i have said in my statement, i am sorry that an immense good word. Thats an inadequate word. I am so sorry mr griffiths isnt here today. You say that alan bates best e mail is worrying. You say that alan bates best e mail is worrying, especially as we hoped we had is worrying, especially as we hoped we had a is worrying, especially as we hoped we had a working relationship. He clearly we had a working relationship. He clearly doesnt trust hospital who is closest clearly doesnt trust hospital who is closest to him, do you think . It would is closest to him, do you think . It would be is closest to him, do you think . It would be unfortunate if we lost him at this would be unfortunate if we lost him at this stage but we need to be straight at this stage but we need to be straight about how cant avail helpful straight about how cant avail helpful this exchange is. What straight about how cant avail helpful this exchange is. What i was t in to helpful this exchange is. What i was trying to say helpful this exchange is. What i was trying to say there helpful this exchange is. What i was trying to say there is helpful this exchange is. What i was trying to say there is that helpful this exchange is. What i was trying to say there is that alan helpful this exchange is. What i was trying to say there is that alan was| trying to say there is that alan was rightly very, very angry about this. His language about post Office Colleagues was extreme, as we see. I knew those post Office Colleagues, at least some of them, and didnt believe they were capable of the behaviours he was suggesting, and so as Chief Executive, secondly and very differently, in that order, i wanted to both understand about care for post Office Colleagues but also the relationship with alan, because we were in the process of trying to work with him and second site on some of the issues, and so what i was trying to do was to balance a number of things. In every case, the most important focus was on mr griffiths and his family. You most important focus was on mr griffiths and his family. Most important focus was on mr griffiths and his family. You say in our griffiths and his family. You say in your statement griffiths and his family. You say in your statement this griffiths and his family. You say in your statement this was griffiths and his family. You say in your statement this was a griffiths and his family. You say in your statement this was a time i griffiths and his family. You say in your statement this was a time of| your statement this was a time of great your statement this was a time of great distress for the family of mr griffiths. Great distress for the family of mr griffiths, and i felt that accusations of blame were unhelpful. In explaining these lines here. Is that right . In explaining these lines here. Is that right . You felt that mr batess accusations of blame were unhelpful . Ithink accusations of blame were unhelpful . I think at accusations of blame were unhelpful . I think at this stage, in something this tragic, accusations of blame were unhelpful, yes, because the post office needed to respond properly and, at this stage, i had no understanding as to what had gone on. ~ ,. ,. , no understanding as to what had gone on. ~ i. ,. ,. , on. Were you in that third paragraph there there are on. Were you in that third paragraph there there are usually on. Were you in that third paragraph there there are usually several there there are usually several Contributory Factors, trying to sow a seed Contributory Factors, trying to sow a seed that Contributory Factors, trying to sow a seed that there may be factors other a seed that there may be factors other than a seed that there may be factors other than those identified by mr batesi other than those identified by mr batesi ie other than those identified by mr bates, Ie The Post Office been to blame bates, Ie The Post Office been to blame, that require to be investigated . Blame, that require to be investigated . Can blame, that require to be investiated . ,. ,. ,. , m investigated . No, not at all. Can we have oll investigated . No, not at all. Can we have p0110002. Investigated . No, not at all. Can we have poll 0002, 5577 investigated . No, not at all. Can we have poll 0002, 5577 on investigated . No, not at all. Can we have poll 0002, 5577 on the investigated . No, not at all. Can wej have poll 0002, 5577 on the screen. And look have poll 0002, 5577 on the screen. And look at have poll 0002, 5577 on the screen. And look at page two at the bottom, please and look at page two at the bottom, please. Thank you. There is an email please. Thank you. There is an email from please. Thank you. There is an e mailfrom mr please. Thank you. There is an e mail from mr breeden to angela vander e mail from mr breeden to angela Vander Bogarde and mr chester. You are copied Vander Bogarde and mr chester. You are copied in later. This is the 11th are copied in later. This is the ttth of are copied in later. This is the 11th of october at 7 31pm. To confirm 11th of october at 7 31pm. To confirm our conversation, glenn, the local manager, had spoken to mr griffiths local manager, had spoken to mr griffiths was Chris Chester to offer condolences following the sad news of mr griffiths having passed away. Glenn of mr griffiths having passed away. Glenn received notification of mr griffiths glenn received notification of mr griffiths was death by text message this evening from his sister. The text was this evening from his sister. The text was worded, sadly my brother martin text was worded, sadly my brother martin passed away this afternoon after being in a coma for 18 days. The family after being in a coma for 18 days. The family is devastated. At such a waste the family is devastated. At such a waste of the family is devastated. At such a waste of life. And feel the post office waste of life. And feel the post office is waste of life. And feel the post office is ruined yet another lie. Thought office is ruined yet another lie. Thought you should like to know,. If we scrott thought you should like to know,. If we scroll up. Thought you should like to know,. If we scroll up, please. We see that that is we scroll up, please. We see that that is passed on to you at 8 43pm. Sadly. That is passed on to you at 8 43pm. Sadly, Martin Griffiths passed away this afternoon. Sadly, Martin Griffiths passed away this afternoon. Yes. And scroll up, lease, this afternoon. Yes. And scroll up, please. To this afternoon. Yes. And scroll up, please. To your this afternoon. I9; and scroll up, please, to your reply. This afternoon. Iles and scroll up, please, to your reply. Keep this afternoon. I9; and scroll up, please, to your reply. Keep going. At 9128pm please, to your reply. Keep going. At 9 28pm that night. You say, thank you for at 9 28pm that night. You say, thank you for sending this news. I am so sorry you for sending this news. I am so sorry. Martins family must be devastated. I know sadly from experience in business and personally that there is rarely a simple personally that there is rarely a simple explanation for such a death, even though it is often easier for those even though it is often easier for those closely packed to look for one of the those closely packed to look for one of the if those closely packed to look for one of the if i those closely packed to look for one of the if i can help in any way, you are the of the if i can help in any way, you are the team of the if i can help in any way, you are the team dealing with it, asked me. Are the team dealing with it, asked me td are the team dealing with it, asked me td be are the team dealing with it, asked me. Id be happy to speak or meet with the me. Id be happy to speak or meet with the family if we thought that would with the family if we thought that would help. Ithink with the family if we thought that would help. I think that is what you were would help. I think that is what you were referring to secondly, we look after them were referring to secondly, we look after them as much as they will allow after them as much as they will allow thirdly, we look after glenn for the allow thirdly, we look after glenn for the he allow thirdly, we look after glenn for the he will be feeling very bad because for the he will be feeling very bad because he knew martin and was the person because he knew martin and was the person closest to him from the post Office Person closest to him from the post office we person closest to him from the post office. We need to look to the business office. We need to look to the business. To help me breathe this property business. To help me breathe this property to business. To help me breathe this properly to the board, can you let me know properly to the board, can you let me know what background we have on martin me know what background we have on martin and me know what background we have on martin and how why might have happened . Then you say, i had heard but have happened . Then you say, i had heard but have yet happened . Then you say, i had heard but have yet to see a formal report that there but have yet to see a formal report that there were Previous Mental Health that there were Previous Mental Health issues and potential Family Issues Health Issues and potential Family Issues. Can you see that . Yes. We re were you asking your team here to dil were you asking your team here to dig into were you asking your team here to dig into mr were you asking your team here to dig into mr griffithss records . To look for dig into mr griffithss records . To look for information or evidence that he look for information or evidence that he took his life because of mental that he took his life because of Mental Health issues or Family Issues . Mental Health Issues or Family Issues . I Mental Health issues or Family Issues . , Mental Health issues or Family Issues . , ,. , � issues . I had. First of all, im so sorry. Issues . I had. First of all, im so sorry, because. Issues . I had. First of all, im so sorry, because. I issues . I had. First of all, im so sorry, because. I had, i issues . I had. First of all, im so sorry, because. I had, as. Issues . I had. First of all, im i so sorry, because. I had, as Chief Executive, to pass this information onto Group Executives and board colleagues, and what i would have expected were the questions that i think i was trying to anticipate, that mr bates had said that the post office was to blame, and i did know from previous examples and other information that. It doesnt matter, i simply should not have said it. Ishould not matter, i simply should not have said it. I should not have used those words. Said it. I should not have used those words. ~ ,. , , those words. Who did you hear . You sa , i had those words. Who did you hear . You say, i had heard. Those words. Who did you hear . You say, i had heard. From those words. Who did you hear . You say, i had heard. From whom those words. Who did you hear . You say, i had heard. From whom did i those words. Who did you hear . You | say, i had heard. From whom did you hear that say, i had heard. From whom did you hear that there were Previous Mental Health hear that there were Previous Mental Health issues and potential Family Issues . Health issues and potential Family Issues . I Health Issues and potential Family Issues . , � , issues . I dont recall. I believed i had also seen issues . I dont recall. I believed i had also seen something issues . I dont recall. I believed i had also seen something in i issues . I dont recall. I believed i had also seen something in an i issues . I dont recall. I believed i had also seen something in an email had also seen something in an e mail somewhere but i dont recall. Mas had also seen something in an email somewhere but i dont recall. Somewhere but i dont recall. Was it rumer at this somewhere but i dont recall. Was it rumer at this stage, somewhere but i dont recall. Was it rumer at this stage, if somewhere but i dont recall. Was it rumer at this stage, if you somewhere but i dont recall. Was it rumer at this stage, if you hadnt i rumer at this stage, if you hadnt seen rumer at this stage, if you hadnt seen any rumer at this stage, if you hadnt seen any formal pollute . N0, rumer at this stage, if you hadnt seen any formal pollute . Rumer at this stage, if you hadnt seen any formal pollute . No, i dont believe so seen any formal pollute . No, i dont believe so. Can seen any formal pollute . No, i dont believe so. Can you seen any formal pollute . No, i dont believe so. Can you help seen any formal pollute . No, i dont believe so. Can you help us seen any formal pollute . No, i dont believe so. Can you help us any i believe so. Can you help us any more . No. Believe so. Can you help us any more . No. I believe so. Can you help us any more . No, i cant. Believe so. Can you help us any more . No, i cant. The believe so. Can you help us any more . No, i cant. The only i believe so. Can you help us any i more . No, i cant. The only clear memory i more . No, i cant. The only clear memory i have more . No, i cant. The only clear memory i have about more . No, i cant. The only clear memory i have about this more . No, i cant. The only clear memory i have about this is i more . No, i cant. The only clear memory i have about this is thatl more . No, i cant. The only clear. Memory i have about this is that the people i was dealing with at the post office were very sad about this and one of my roles as their boss was to try and help them through it as well. Rumer would be a very inappropriate word. As well. Rumer would be a very inappropriate word. Bearing that sentence in inappropriate word. Bearing that sentence in mind, inappropriate word. Bearing that sentence in mind, can inappropriate word. Bearing that sentence in mind, can we inappropriate word. Bearing that sentence in mind, can we look i inappropriate word. Bearing that | sentence in mind, can we look at poll 0039 sentence in mind, can we look at poll 0039 3535 . This is the next day. Poll 0039 3535 . This is the next day the poll 0039 3535 . This is the next day, the saturday, the 12th, and its 9 01am day, the saturday, the 12th, and its 9 01am you day, the saturday, the 12th, and its 9 01am. You are e mailing a group of people 9 01am. You are e mailing a group of people im 9 01am. You are e mailing a group of people. Im not going to read the chain people. Im not going to read the chain in people. Im not going to read the chain. In the third bullet point, under chain. In the third bullet point, under some questions, you say, i possibly under some questions, you say, i possibly heard but may be confusing with a possibly heard but may be confusing with a previous case that martin had some with a previous case that martin had some Mental Health issues. How do you possibly hear something . I think ithinkl i think i am simply stating an uncertainty. I think i am simply stating an uncertainty i think i am simply stating an uncertainty. I think i am simply stating an uncertain. , uncertainty. You say you might be confusin uncertainty. You say you might be confusing it uncertainty. You say you might be confusing it with uncertainty. You say you might be confusing it with a uncertainty. You say you might be confusing it with a previous i uncertainty. You say you might be confusing it with a previous case. | confusing it with a previous case. Why were confusing it with a previous case. Why were you saying this at all if you might why were you saying this at all if you might be confusing mr griffiths with another case . Lam i am trying to make sure, i believe, that there isnt confusion. I shared with you earlier that the father of a previous colleague, i spoke to him, and it may be that i was recalling that. In him, and it may be that i was recalling that. Him, and it may be that i was recalling that. In your witness statement. Recalling that. In your witness statement, no recalling that. In your witness statement, no need recalling that. In your witness statement, no need to recalling that. In your witness statement, no need to turn i recalling that. In your witness statement, no need to turn it| recalling that. In your witness i statement, no need to turn it up, paragraph statement, no need to turn it up, paragraph 675 on page 317, you say, i was paragraph 675 on page 317, you say, i was very paragraph 675 on page 317, you say, i was very aware of the background to suicide i was very aware of the background to suicide. It can be complex and is sometimes to suicide. It can be complex and is sometimes not apparent until long after the sometimes not apparent until long after the fact. There is often a desire after the fact. There is often a desire by after the fact. There is often a desire by those closely affected by such a desire by those closely affected by such a death to look for an explanation. By telling us that, is your evidence that you were looking to explain your evidence that you were looking to explain mr griffithss death for the benefit of his family, and that is why the benefit of his family, and that is why you the benefit of his family, and that is why you were asking these questions . Is why you were asking these ruestions . ,. , , , questions . No, i was simply trying to net to questions . No, i was simply trying to get to understand questions . No, i was simply trying to get to understand whether i questions . No, i was simply trying to get to understand whether what j questions . No, i was simply trying i to get to understand whether what mr bates had suggested, which is that the post office, so colleagues, had been responsible for mr griffithss death. i , been responsible for mr griffithss death. i i i. , been responsible for mr griffithss death. i i i. I death. And his sister had said the same. Death. And his sister had said the same yes death. And his sister had said the same. Yes. You death. And his sister had said the same. Yes. You knew death. And his sister had said the same. Yes. You knew it death. And his sister had said the same. Yes. You knew it was death. And his sister had said the same. Yes. You knew it was the i death. And his sister had said the i same. Yes. You knew it was the view ofthe same. Yes. You knew it was the view of the family same. Yes. You knew it was the view of the family that same. I9; you knew it was the view of the family that mr griffiths had taken of the family that mr griffiths had taken his of the family that mr griffiths had taken his own life because it had been taken his own life because it had been ruined by the post office. | been ruined by the post office. I did been ruined by the post office. Did say been ruined by the post office. I did say that, yes. You been ruined by the post office. I did say that, yes. You had i been ruined by the post office. I did say that, yes. You had just l been ruined by the post office. I. Did say that, yes. You had just been did say that, yes. You had ust been told b his did say that, yes. You had ust been told by his death did say that, yes. You had ust been told by his death and i did say that, yes. You had ust been told by his death and you i did say that, yes. You had just been told by his death and you were i told by his death and you were trying told by his death and you were trying to told by his death and you were trying to get on the front foot, werent trying to get on the front foot, werent you . Trying to get on the front foot, werent ou . Ii. I. I i ii werent you . No, that was not the case. Werent you . No, that was not the case you werent you . No, that was not the case you were werent you . No, that was not the case. You were trying werent you . No, that was not the case. You were trying to werent you . No, that was not the case. You were trying to find i werent you . No, that was not the case. You were trying to find out l case. You were trying to find out information case. You were trying to find out information and case. You were trying to find out information and tasking case. You were trying to find out information and tasking the i case. You were trying to find out| information and tasking the team with finding out information to counter with finding out information to counter any narrative that the post Office Counter any narrative that the post office was counter any narrative that the post office was to blame, werent you . N0,i office was to blame, werent you . No, i office was to blame, werent you . No i have office was to blame, werent you . No, i have said and you have seen that i asked about the family, as the other e mails trying to find some payment for mr griffiths mrs griffiths as well, what i was trying to do quite simply, it was to get the wider picture and not to be, and to understand particularly the very difficult challenges bates had levelled at some post Office Colleagues. Mr bates. Levelled at some post Office Colleagues. Mr bates. Thank you, that can come colleagues. Mr bates. Thank you, that can come down colleagues. Mr bates. Thank you, that can come down to colleagues. Mr bates. Thank you, that can come down to lastly, colleagues. Mr bates. Thank you, that can come down to lastly, by i colleagues. Mr bates. Thank you, j that can come down to lastly, by way of general that can come down to lastly, by way of general questions, i want to ask you briefly of general questions, i want to ask you briefly about recollection and failures you briefly about recollection and failures in you briefly about recollection and failures in recollection. You say in Paragraph Failures in recollection. You say in paragraph 358 of your witness statement, in relation to correspondence with simon becker and owen lyons correspondence with simon becker and owen lyons the conversation was about owen lyons the conversation was about the owen lyons the conversation was about the bugs, i dont know if i was told about the bugs, i dont know if i was told about them on that date or later paragraph or two for, you say you cannot later paragraph or two for, you say you cannot recall what steps were taken you cannot recall what steps were taken to you cannot recall what steps were taken to ensure second side have been taken to ensure second side have been informed of what post office knew been informed of what post office knew about the buck. Paragraph 773, you say knew about the buck. Paragraph 773, you say you knew about the buck. Paragraph 773, you say you dont recall the advice been you say you dont recall the advice been discussed or provided to the board been discussed or provided to the board. There are examples where you say throughout. We board. There are examples where you say throughout. Say throughout. We have ust been heanna say throughout. We have ust been hearing some say throughout. We have ust been hearing some quite i say throughout. We have just been hearing some quite difficult hearing some quite difficult evidence about Martin Griffiths, a former Sub Postmaster who had attempted to take his own life in September 2013 after he was acute of a £39,000 shortfall. He later died in hospital a few weeks later. We heard how Paula Vennells said she was so sorry that mr griffiths isnt here today. But she acknowledged it was a shallow response to this case. Its been a difficult morning with Paula Vennells, the former post office boss, becoming tearful on a number of occasions. She broke down when acknowledging that she told mps and colleagues in one meeting about prosecutions of supposed martyrs wasnt true. The smog of supposed martyrs wasnt true. This is the third time we are hearing from x post office boss and Sub Postmaster is very keen, have been extremely keen to hear what she had to say. The mood in the room, we are told, correspondence reporting from inside the inquiry is very sombre as the death of Martin Griffiths was being discussed. There is a live page monitoring all of this on the bbc news website, so you can continue to monitor s, but were going to pull away from the post Office Inquiry and focus on parliament. Prime ministers questions. Craig mackinlay hasjust had a Standing Ovation. He is back at westminster after having his hands and feet amputated following sepsis. So a Standing Ovation there for him. Ben wrightjoins us monitoring this. So we heard that round of applause, a Standing Ovation, and we are also expecting the Prime Minister to feel positive about the uk Inflation Figures, which have slowed to 2. 3 , down from 3. 2 in march. Which have slowed to 2. 3 , down from 32 in march 3. 2 in march. Yes, big Economic News. It 3. 2 in march. Yes, big Economic News it was 3. 2 in march. Yes, big Economic News. It was in 3. 2 in march. Yes, big Economic News. It was in october 3. 2 in march. Yes, big Economic News. It was in october 22 3. 2 in march. Yes, big Economic News. It was in october 22 that i news. It was in october 22 that inflation soared just over 11 . Now the Inflation Figure is back tojust above 2 , which is the back of a target. The Prime Minister has already said it marks a major moment. Although he said there is still more work to be done for labour have said there is no reason at all the Prime Minister should be doing a victory lap, considering how hard many people are still finding it and how high prices still are, but the economy is clearly going to be a massive part of the general election, and finally the government feels it has a story of an improving situation to tell, so certainly rishi sunak want to take about that. Labour leader sir keir starmer may want to go on the economy and the fact that disposable incomes have been falling in this parliament. He may talk about the Infected Blood Scandal, which has been the Major Political story this week. Is scandal, which has been the maor political story this week. I political story this week. Is given this inflation political story this week. Is given this inflation news, political story this week. Is given this inflation news, there political story this week. Is given this inflation news, there has i political story this week. Is given l this inflation news, there has been a lot of rumour and speculation among politicaljournalists, certainly on social media, about the possibility of a general election. What do we know . Life possibility of a general election. What do we know . Possibility of a general election. What do we know . ~ i i what do we know . We have been here before in the what do we know . We have been here before in the last what do we know . We have been here before in the last few what do we know . We have been here before in the last few months what do we know . We have been here before in the last few months but i before in the last few months but its right to say that this morning, as we speak, there is a spasm of speculation again ripping through westminster about whether or not the Prime Minister may be on the cusp of calling a general election for the he has consistently said he plans to hold an election in the second half of the year for the second half of the year begins injuly. So its not impossible at all that there could yet be a summer election. What we do know is that contacts we are making with people in government, asking them the question, is the Prime Minister about to go to the country, are not being returned, those questions are not being answered. You might argue thats normal. He is not going to tell people like me and my colleagues that the Prime Minister is about to call a general election, but there is a strange silence in those communications which is making peoplejumpy, i would say, to say the least. If you are the Prime Minister, you have the sole power to decide the date of the general election, you can see arguments in favour and against. I guess sir keir starmer will be pushing him on this one. Ihla pushing him on this one. No question. Pushing him on this one. Iii . Question, theyve been saying that the Prime Minister should just go and hold an election now, theyve been beating the government with the stick for a while. Labour have been pretty buoyant, streets ahead of the tories in the opinion polls, they feel and momentum is with them, they see an advantage in accusing rishi sunak of Running Scared at the moment, and that would be, if you are in numberten moment, and that would be, if you are in number ten now, perhaps one of the arguments for going for it. There would be a huge element of surprise, given the atmospherics of the last few weeks, if he did thing actually, im going to go for it early, were going to go for the summer. That would seize the moment, that would take a lot of people by surprise, but it is what labour have been urging the government to do. Lets cross over to Prime Ministers questions. You, mr speaker. Question number one. ~ ~. , i, one. Mr speaker, i know the whole house willioin one. Mr speaker, i know the whole House Willjoin me one. Mr speaker, i know the whole House Willjoin me in one. Mr speaker, i know the whole House Willjoin me in rememberingj House Willjoin me in remembering the victims of the horrific Manchester Arena bombing seven years ago today. Our thoughts are with them and theirfamilies ago today. Our thoughts are with them and their families and ago today. Our thoughts are with them and theirfamilies and i them and their families and i would like to pay tribute to the woman who joined us in the gallery for the bravery in campaigning in her sons martins memory and i look forward to meeting her later today. Can i also add my personal welcome back to parliament to my friend and colleague, the Honourable Memberfor south thanet. No one who watched his interview last night could have failed to have been in awe of his incredible resilience. This morning i had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others in addition to my duties in this house, i shall have further such meetings later today. Have further such meetings later toda. Ii i have further such meetings later toda. Ii , vii have further such meetings later toda. Ii ~ ~ have further such meetings later toda. Ii ~ today. Thank you, mr speaker. I, too, welcome the today. Thank you, mr speaker. I, too, welcome the honourable i today. Thank you, mr speaker. I, i too, welcome the honourable member for south thanet back to the house and wish him well in his duties. Can i also associate my remarks with the Prime Minister. The association of dental groups in their may 2022 report identified my constituency is one of englands� s dental deserts. I welcome the Prime Ministers grant scheme to send dental vans to constituencies like mine butjust months on, he is having to do a u turn because there isnt enough advance. Why cant the minister address this issue seriously . That isnt right address this issue seriously . That isnt right. Actually, address this issue seriously . That isnt right. Actually, thanks to our dental recovery plan, we are delivering 2. 5 million more dental appointments. There is a new patient premium, new provision for remote communities and actually, we know the plan is now delivering because since it was announced injanuary, over 500 more Dental Practices are now accepting new patients and i would just point out to the honourable lady that compared to the Party Opposite� s plan, what we are doing is producing more than twice the number of extra appointments to get people the treatment they need. Todays news on inflation isntjust good news for consumers but also for Capital Projects like the investment into St Helier Hospital and to build a Second Hospital in my constituency, protecting a e and maternity locally. Given that good news on the economy come up with the Prime Minister be committed to working with the nhs in my area, to build that Second Hospital, improve St Helier Hospital and agree you can only underpin a strong nhs with a Strong Economy . We only underpin a strong nhs with a Strong Economy . Only underpin a strong nhs with a Strong Economy . We are investing in Better Health Strong Economy . We are investing in Better Health care Strong Economy . We are investing in Better Health care right Strong Economy . We are investing in Better Health care right across Strong Economy . We are investing in Better Health care right across our. Better health care right across our country and im delighted to see they were recently allocated over £6 million to upgrade the a and e and will benefit from a new specialist Emergency Hospital in sutton as part of the programme but as my honourable friend said, that is only possible because of the difficult decisions we have taken to bring inflation back to normal and grow the economy. Todays figures show the economy. Todays figures show the plan is working and im sure the whole house, including perhaps the leader of the opposition, will welcome the news that inflation is now back to normal. The welcome the news that inflation is now back to normal. Welcome the news that inflation is now back to normal. The leader of the opposition. Now back to normal. The leader of the opposition, keir now back to normal. The leader of the opposition, keir starmer. Now back to normal. The leader of the opposition, keir starmer. I now back to normal. The leader of i the opposition, keir starmer. I want to beain the opposition, keir starmer. I want to begin by saying the opposition, keir starmer. I want to begin by saying a the opposition, keir starmer. I want to begin by saying a few the opposition, keir starmer. I want to begin by saying a few words to. To begin by saying a few words to the Honourable Memberfor thanet the honourable member for thanet south, the Honourable Memberfor thanet south, firstly thank you for meeting me privately this morning with your wife and daughter sol me privately this morning with your wife and daughter so i could personally convey my best wishes to all of you. Secondly, on some occasions, and there arent many, this house genuinely comes together as one and we do so today to pay tribute to your courage and determination in not only coming through an awful ordeal but by being here today with us in this chamber. And thirdly, i want to acknowledge your deep sense of service. I think politics is about service. And resuming your duties as an mp, being here today, is an example for all of us of your deep sense of service and we thank you for it. I also welcome the campaign up in the gallery, she lost her son martin seven years ago today in the Manchester Arena attacks and we remember everybody who was lost in that awful attack. She is campaigning for martins law which we must make a reality as soon as possible. The Infected Blood Scandal reflects a profound failure across almost every part of the british state. On monday, in our apologies and yesterday on the question of compensation, this house was united but too many times we have heard similar sentiments from that dispatch box and from this one. There are many hard yards to go so does the Prime Minister agree with me that we will only now make Real Progress if we finally tackle the lack of openness, transparency and candour that sir Brian Langstaff identified as having prolonged the victims suffering for decades . Yes. Victims suffering for decades . Yes, mr speaker victims suffering for decades . Yes, mr speaker. The victims suffering for decades . Yes, mr speaker. The inquiry was established to get to the truth and provide answers and this weeks report represented a hugely significant moment for the community. This was an appalling scandal and i think the whole house is grateful to the diligent work of all those who have supported sir Brian Langstaff and the inquiry� s work and i also paid tribute to the bravery of every individual who has come forward and told their story in theirfight forjustice. Their their fight for justice. Their voices have theirfight forjustice. Their voices have now finally been heard and i agree with the honourable gentleman, we will listen to them and ensure that nothing like this can ever happen in our country again. Can ever happen in our country aaain. , ~ , ~ can ever happen in our country aaain. , ~ ~ again. Thank you, mr speaker. The infected blood again. Thank you, mr speaker. The Infected Blood Scandal again. Thank you, mr speaker. The Infected Blood Scandal is shocking, j Infected Blood Scandal is shocking, truly shocking. But it isnt unique. The story is familiar. Concerns raised but ignored. Reports written but not acted on. Victims and their families campaigning for years just to be heard. So, i want to focus in, ifi to be heard. So, i want to focus in, if i may, on the duty of candour or lack of it which has been a failing in scandal after scandal, injustice after injustice. From grand felt tokamak horizon, hillsborough and now infected blood. Grenfell. I cant think of a single example where that duty of candour should not apply to all Public Servants across the board. And i dont think it is possible for any of us to stand at these dispatch boxes and honestly say, never again, stand at these dispatch boxes and honestly say, neveragain, unless stand at these dispatch boxes and honestly say, never again, unless we address it. So, does the Prime Minister agree that at the time has now come for the duty of candour to be clearly enshrined in law across the board . I be clearly enshrined in law across the board . Be clearly enshrined in law across the board . ,. ,. ,. ,. , the board . I am of course aware of the board . I am of course aware of the recommendation the board . I am of course aware of the recommendation made the board . I am of course aware of the recommendation made by the board . I am of course aware of the recommendation made by sir l the board . I am of course aware of the recommendation made by sir Brian Langstaff in the final report of the inquiry in relation to duties of candour and accountability and indeed, my right honourable friend previously introduced the duty of candour into the health service. It is important the government takes time to fully digest the gravity of the findings of the report, the rungs which have been committed are devastating and life altering for so many. Ensuring nothing like this ever happens again as a priority and of course we are sympathetic to that and going through the recommendations in detail at the moment before providing a comprehensive response but given the situation and the gravity of the findings, it is a recommendation that there is enormous amount of sympathy for. I that there is enormous amount of sympathy for that there is enormous amount of s math for. ,. , sympathy for. I understand the Prime Minister wants sympathy for. I understand the Prime Minister wants to sympathy for. I understand the Prime Minister wants to look sympathy for. I understand the Prime Minister wants to look at sympathy for. I understand the Prime Minister wants to look at the minister wants to look at the recommendations in detail and come back to them in due course but we cant look away on this duty of candour. So can i at least ask the Prime Minister to expand the pool for evidence on the duty of candour beyond health as mike we do owe that to the victims of hillsborough and horizon and to work across the house to establish a far reaching and binding duty of candourjust as quickly as possible. Mr binding duty of candour ust as quickly as possible. Mr speaker, i think the honourable quickly as possible. Mr speaker, i think the honourable gentleman l quickly as possible. Mr speaker, i i think the honourable gentleman will remember on monday i said very specifically that the patterns and behaviour that we had seen in this appalling tragedy had been replicated in others and i mentioned hillsborough specifically. I am very aware there are structural and behavioural, cultural problems we do need to fix. The duty of candour is something, the principal and there is enormous amounts of support the principle of an sympathy for. You will understand we are digesting the full contents of the report but of course we want to right the wrongs of the past and crucially ensure nothing like this happens ever again. In nothing like this happens ever aaain. ,. , nothing like this happens ever aaain. , again. In his report, sir brian identified again. In his report, sir brian identified individual again. In his report, sir brian identified individual failings, | again. In his report, sir brian| identified individualfailings, a number of them, even cover ups. But alongside that, he also found equally important and harder to reach institutional and cultural failings, including in the nhs. A defensive attitude which refused to acknowledge problems. The silencing of those who raised concerns. And a total failure of leadership when faced with the truth. The nhs does a remarkable job every day but that is indefensible. Does the Prime Minister agree that the very culture of the nhs needs to change . Yes. Minister agree that the very culture of the nhs needs to change . Yes, mr seaker. Of the nhs needs to change . Yes, mr speaker again. Of the nhs needs to change . Yes, mr speaker again. I of the nhs needs to change . Yes, mr speaker. Again, i think of the nhs needs to change . Yes, mr speaker. Again, i think in of the nhs needs to change . Yes, mr speaker. Again, i think in response i speaker. Again, i think in response specifically to the question from my right honourable friend the member for bromsgrove, we discussed this on monday and at the nhs of course provides life saving care to so many people every single day for which we are enormously grateful but it is absolutely clear, as the report makes crystal clear, but there were significant failings. The nhs failed. It failed people, it let them down, it is right that they are held accountable for that and learn the lessons. They clearly have been improvements and changes in medical practice since that time but going forward, we need to go through the full recommendations of sir Brian Langstaff� s report and hold the nhs to account for bringing through the changes that are necessary. We need reform, changes that are necessary. We need reform. We changes that are necessary. We need reform, we need changes that are necessary. We need reform, we need to changes that are necessary. We need reform, we need to change and changes that are necessary. We need | reform, we need to change and i have seen first hand how important reform is during my time running the crown prosecution service. But i also saw hard it is, particularly on cultural issues. It requires brave decisions and difficult decisions. Ii issues. It requires brave decisions and difficult decisions. 11 years ago, the health secretary, the now chancellor, said the era of gagging nhs staff from raising their worries about patient care must come to an end. But 11 years on, ten months on from the lucy letby case, there are still clear examples of nhs managers still clear examples of nhs managers still gagging staff and then being moved on instead of being moved out. So, will the Prime Minister now commit to ensuring those who do gag and silence whistle blowers will no longer be able to work in the nhs . Of course the behaviour that the honourable gentleman described is wrong and i believe already is illegal under our laws but we will make sure that people do have the ability to raise concerns and one thing i know has given many of those who have been impacted by this scandal some reassurance is the appointment of sir Robert Francis to be chair of the inquiry who obviously is someone who just doesnt have a wealth of experience dealing with this particular set of issues but a long track record working with the nhs as well on the issueis working with the nhs as well on the issue is the honourable gentleman raises. 5ir issue is the honourable gentleman raises. , � h issue is the honourable gentleman raises. , � � , issue is the honourable gentleman raises. , � , issue is the honourable gentleman raises. , � � , raises. Sir bryans report is a victory for raises. Sir bryans report is a victory for all raises. Sir bryans report is a victory for all those raises. Sir bryans report is a victory for all those campaigners and victims who fought so hard for this moment. Including the right Honourable Memberfor this moment. Including the right honourable member for hull this moment. Including the right Honourable Memberfor hull north. But it is also one of profound pain, anger and sadness for so many. There is a chance for us to make Real Progress on this issue and we must do that with the victims in mind and given the degree of Cross Party Consensus that we have already seen on apologies and compensation and given the governments promised to ensure compensation by the end of the year, will he also now promise to deliver on all the recommendations in the same timeframe by the end of the year . {lit timeframe by the end of the year . Of course we want to deliver on the recommendations as quickly as practically possible and indeed our expectation is that we can do that before the end of the year. But sir roberts appointment will bring a wealth of experience and it is crucial the chair had the knowledge and expertise and familiarity with theissues and expertise and familiarity with the issues here. His support for delivering the scheme and making sure the compensation can be paid by the end of the year i think will be invaluable. He talked about the community and over the next few weeks, sir robert will seek views from the infected blood community, specifically on the proposed scheme, to make sure the scheme will best serve those it is intended for and our shared priority is delivering compensation to all those infected and affected with absolutely minimum that delay. In and affected with absolutely minimum that delay that delay. In 1997, the public were told that delay. In 1997, the public were told there that delay. In 1997, the public were told there would that delay. In 1997, the public were told there would be that delay. In 1997, the public were told there would be a were told there would be a continuity conservative government, the same policies just with different faces. Instead what they got was record immigration, constitutional vandalism and a broken economy. Does the Prime Minister agree that with the economy now roaring back to life under a conservative government, the last thing we need is a return to the failed labour recipe of high taxes, open borders and employment laws that destroy jobs . Open borders and employment laws that destroyjobs . Mr; that destroy obs . My honourable friend gives that destroy jobs . My honourable friend gives a that destroy jobs . My honourable friend gives a superb that destroy jobs . My honourable friend gives a superb and friend gives a superb and passionate economic diagnosis friend gives a superb and passionate economic diagnosis and friend gives a superb and passionate economic diagnosis and he friend gives a superb and passionate economic diagnosis and he is friend gives a superb and passionate economic diagnosis and he is right i economic diagnosis and he is right inflation economic diagnosis and he is right inflation is economic diagnosis and he is right inflation is back to normal and lower inflation is back to normal and lower than france, germany, the inflation is back to normal and lowerthan france, germany, the us, its lowest lowerthan france, germany, the us, its lowest level in years. Our economy its lowest level in years. Our economy is growing faster, wages are rising economy is growing faster, wages are rising which economy is growing faster, wages are rising which is why we need to stick to the rising which is why we need to stick to the plan rising which is why we need to stick to the plan that is working. He is right to the plan that is working. He is right to to the plan that is working. He is right to point out the risk of what the labour right to point out the risk of what the labour party propose. 70 new laws, the labour party propose. 70 new laws, they the labour party propose. 70 new laws, they have caved into their union laws, they have caved into their union paymasters and what does that mean, union paymasters and what does that mean. It union paymasters and what does that mean, it means they will cost jobs and damage our economic recovery. Can i and damage our economic recovery. Can i begin and damage our economic recovery. Can i begin by also welcoming the memberfrom south can i begin by also welcoming the member from south thanet back to the chamber . He is an inspiration to all of us. Speculation is rife so i think the public deserve a clear answer to a simple question. Does the Prime Minister intend to call a summer general election . Or is he afeart . This summer general election . Or is he afeart . � , summer general election . Or is he afeart . R. Summer general election . Or is he afeart . � ,. Summer general election . Or is he afeart . M. ,. , summer general election . Or is he afeart . A. ,. ,. , afeart . As i have said repeatedly to him. Afeart . As i have said repeatedly to him spoiler afeart . As i have said repeatedly to him. Spoiler alert, afeart . As i have said repeatedly to him. Spoiler alert, there afeart . As i have said repeatedly to him. Spoiler alert, there is afeart . As i have said repeatedly to him. Spoiler alert, there is going i him. Spoileralert, there is going to be him. Spoileralert, there is going to be a him. Spoileralert, there is going to be a general election in the second to be a general election in the second half of this year and at that moment second half of this year and at that moment the british people will see the truth moment the british people will see the truth about the honourable gentleman opposite me because that would gentleman opposite me because that would be gentleman opposite me because that would be the choice at the next election. Would be the choice at the next election. A would be the choice at the next election, a party that is not able to say election, a party that is not able to say to election, a party that is not able to say to the country what they would to say to the country what they would do. To say to the country what they would do, a party that would put at risk our would do, a party that would put at risk our hard earned economic stability risk our hard earned economic stability or risk our hard earned economic stability or the conservatives that are delivering a secure future for our united are delivering a secure future for our united kingdom. He are delivering a secure future for our united kingdom. He continues to la names our united kingdom. He continues to play games with our united kingdom. He continues to play games with the our united kingdom. He continues to play games with the public, our united kingdom. He continues to play games with the public, but play games with the public, but while he does that lets get back to some serious matters, because i was taking back this week when a former Prime Minister spoke some sense, alas it was indeed david cameron, because what he said was that in relation to graduate work visas, if any restrictions or implemented it will lead tojob any restrictions or implemented it will lead to job losses, university closures, a reduction in research. University scotland outlines £5 billion of economic value at risk. Can i ask the Prime Minister, does he agree with the foreign secretary . He also said the levels of legal migration to this country are too high migration to this country are too high that migration to this country are too high. That is what i believe also, which high. That is what i believe also, which is high. That is what i believe also, which is why it is right that we are taking which is why it is right that we are taking Decisive Action to bring the numbers taking Decisive Action to bring the numbers down. And that plan is working numbers down. And that plan is working in numbers down. And that plan is working. In the first three months of this working. In the first three months of this year working. In the first three months of this year the visas issued are down of this year the visas issued are down by of this year the visas issued are down by 25 . Migration is on its way to being down by 25 . Migration is on its way to being returned to more sustainable levels. I appreciate that is sustainable levels. I appreciate that is a sustainable levels. I appreciate that is a point of difference between the honourable gentlemans party and between the honourable gentlemans party and the labour party and us, we believe party and the labour party and us, we believe the level of migration needs we believe the level of migration needs to we believe the level of migration needs to come down to more sustainable level so we ease the pressure sustainable level so we ease the pressure on Public Services and everyone pressure on Public Services and everyone who comes to our country must everyone who comes to our country must contribute economically. That is the must contribute economically. That is the migration system we will detiver~ is the migration system we will deliver. Gn is the migration system we will deliver. ~ , is the migration system we will deliver. ,. , is the migration system we will deliver. ,. , deliver. On the welsh borders we are incredibly proud deliver. On the welsh borders we are incredibly proud of deliver. On the welsh borders we are incredibly proud of the deliver. On the welsh borders we are incredibly proud of the veteran incredibly proud of the veteran centre, the robertjones and Agnes Hunt Orthopaedic Hospital in no structure, which not only treats veterans locally including from my constituency of crude south, but also from across britain, as it is the largest hospital based veteran service in the uk, with the Prime Minister help resolve the centres current funding crisis, caused by changes in the nhs funding formula last year, given the fantastic treatment provided by Lieutenant Colonel meier and his team for amazing Veterans Community across the uk. , amazing Veterans Community across the uk. , ~ , the uk. Can i thank my honourable friend to raising this the uk. Can i thank my honourable friend to raising this important friend to raising this important issue friend to raising this important issue we friend to raising this important issue. We are committed to making the uk issue. We are committed to making the uk the issue. We are committed to making the uk the best place in the world to be the uk the best place in the world to be a the uk the best place in the world to be a veteran and ensuring they have to be a veteran and ensuring they have access to the appropriate physical have access to the appropriate physical and Mental Health support they deserve. That is why we have rotted they deserve. That is why we have rolled out they deserve. That is why we have rolled out operation restore, courage rolled out operation restore, courage and i believe nhs england have been introducing Health Services have been introducing Health Services to work more closely with Orthopaedic Services but i know he has raised Orthopaedic Services but i know he has raised this issue of bonding with the has raised this issue of bonding with the minister of veteran affairs and he with the minister of veteran affairs and he will be writing back to my honourable friend with an update in due course honourable friend with an update in due course. Can honourable friend with an update in due course due course. Can i oin others in motoring h due course. Can i oin others in motoring back due course. Can i oin others in motoring back to due course. Can ijoin others in motoring back to the due course. Can ijoin others in motoring back to the house due course. Can ijoin others in| motoring back to the house the Honourable Memberfor motoring back to the house the honourable member for south thanet . And say how much we admire his courage. And send our best wishes to him and his family. And alsojoin others in remembering all the victims of the bombing of Manchester Arena. Amanda claimed carer� s allowance went growing for her mother but the dwp is now hounding her to pay back £1200. Karina, whose daughter requires round the clock care, has been hit by a bill for £11,000. Victoria has been forced to pay back £100 a month. Just some of the tens of thousands of carers, victims of the dwps flawed system punished harshly for going sometimes just a few pounds over the auditory earnings limit. How many carers to remarkablejob, they earnings limit. How many carers to remarkable job, they should earnings limit. How many carers to remarkablejob, they should be penalised shouldnt be penalised for working properly dwps and failures. So does the Prime Minister agree the government should be supporting carers, not persecuting them . ,. , supporting carers, not persecuting them . , them . The government recognises the contribution and them . The government recognises the contribution and sacrifices them . The government recognises the contribution and sacrifices that contribution and sacrifices that carers contribution and sacrifices that carers up contribution and sacrifices that carers up and down the country so often carers up and down the country so often make carers up and down the country so often make to care for others and that is often make to care for others and that is why often make to care for others and that is why we have increased carers that is why we have increased carers allowance by almost £1500 since carers allowance by almost £1500 since 2010, why we introduced carers leave since 2010, why we introduced carers leave and since 2010, why we introduced carers leave and it since 2010, why we introduced carers leave and it is why the Better Care Fund leave and it is why the Better Care Fund funds leave and it is why the Better Care Fund funds respite care breaks for carers fund funds respite care breaks for carers which have been a no warmly welcomed carers which have been a no warmly welcomed and used. In the right number welcomed and used. In the right number of welcomed and used. In the right number of cases where individuals havent number of cases where individuals havent appropriately informed dwp about havent appropriately informed dwp about a havent appropriately informed dwp about a change in their circumstances, dwp have then rightly sought circumstances, dwp have then rightly sought to circumstances, dwp have then rightly sought to recover overpayments as they would be expected to in order to ensure they would be expected to in order to ensure the integrity of the system to ensure the integrity of the system and protecting the taxpayer, but of system and protecting the taxpayer, but of course they will work with anyone but of course they will work with anyone who is struggling with their repayment terms and will always look to negotiate an affordable repayment plan. To negotiate an affordable repayment lan. , to negotiate an affordable repayment ian,. ,. , to negotiate an affordable repayment lan. ,. , , to negotiate an affordable repayment plan. They also extend my welcome to the honourable plan. They also extend my welcome to the honourable member plan. They also extend my welcome to the honourable member for plan. They also extend my welcome to the honourable member for south the honourable member for south thanet . The Honourable Memberfor south thanet . The eight main pounds made available by the government for the repair of roads and potholes is very welcome. Howeversome repair of roads and potholes is very welcome. However some local authorities such as Cambridge County Council and Peterborough City Council and Peterborough City Council would serve my constituency, sometimes use inferior material, so the works need to be done again in a few months time. That is an issue that applies to many constituencies across the country. So will the Prime Minister uses influence to ensure there are top quality specifications so the repairs can last much longer . L specifications so the repairs can last much longer . Specifications so the repairs can last much longer . Specifications so the repairs can last much loner . ,. ,. , last much longer . I am proud we have announced an last much longer . I am proud we have announced an additional last much longer . I am proud we have announced an additional £8 announced an additional £8 billion per roads announced an additional £8 billion per roads resurfacing over the next decade. Per roads resurfacing over the next decade, money made available through the reallocation of h52 buntings and that will the reallocation of h52 buntings and that will mean fewer bottles and smoother and safer roads across our country smoother and safer roads across our country but smoother and safer roads across our country but i smoother and safer roads across our country but i agree with my honourable friend, it is of utmost importance honourable friend, it is of utmost importance these repairs are completed with high quality materials and ijoin him in calling on cambridge county and Peterborough Council on cambridge county and Peterborough Council to on cambridge county and Peterborough Council to make sure they deliver that for council to make sure they deliver that for his council to make sure they deliver that for his residence. In council to make sure they deliver that for his residence. That for his residence. In the wee small hours that for his residence. In the wee small hours of that for his residence. In the wee small hours of saturday that for his residence. In the wee | small hours of saturday morning, that for his residence. In the wee i small hours of saturday morning, i received an e mail and i apologise for my language, calling me a parasite, rat and a piece of sheet. Amanda is doing tour of the uk and advocating publicly for the self proclaimed misogynist influence is andrew and tristan tight who are encouraging toxic attitudes among young men in this country. Can i ask the Prime Minister who has spoken about banning hate preachers mentioned uk if he will extend this to misogynist . To misogynist . Those who seek to divide us, undermine to misogynist . Those who seek to divide us, undermine our to misogynist . Those who seek to divide us, undermine our values i to misogynist . Those who seek to i divide us, undermine our values and intimidate divide us, undermine our values and intimidate and threaten others have no place intimidate and threaten others have no place in intimidate and threaten others have no place in our society and we will not hesitate to use not just the full force not hesitate to use not just the full force of the law but also our immigration regime to make sure we have security and cohesion in this country have security and cohesion in this count. ,. ,. ,. , have security and cohesion in this count. ,. ,. ,. , country. The population of malton is risini country. The population of malton is rising rapidly country. The population of malton is rising rapidly and country. The population of malton is rising rapidly and for country. The population of malton is rising rapidly and for over country. The population of malton is rising rapidly and for over 20 country. The population of malton is rising rapidly and for over 20 years i rising rapidly and for over 20 years my constituents have been promised a new hospital, it mid and south essex icb are now proposing to close the existing st peters hospital without any replacement, leaving my constituents and those my right honourable friend for weight and having to travel up to 30 miles per some treatments. Will my right honourable friend asked ministers to tell the icb to withdraw this proposal and to commission an independent assessment of how best to provide quality local Health Services that my constituents and my right honourable friend is deserve . Can i commend him for his commitment to his can i commend him for his commitment to his constituents . I know he and the member for wigan met both the minister the member for wigan met both the minister of state for health and secondary care and the minister for social secondary care and the minister for social care secondary care and the minister for social care recently to discuss this social care recently to discuss this i social care recently to discuss this. I understand the icb have extended this. I understand the icb have extended the consultation bite three weeks extended the consultation bite three weeks to extended the consultation bite three weeks to ensure that more consideration can be given and voices consideration can be given and voices can consideration can be given and voices can be heard but i will answer voices can be heard but i will answer the relevant minister key saw iililt answer the relevant minister key saw right honourable friend updated on the progress of this. My constituent has recently the progress of this. My constituent has recently applied the progress of this. My constituent has recently applied to the progress of this. My constituent has recently applied to move the progress of this. My constituent has recently applied to move from | has recently applied to move from her council home because she can no longer walk up the stairs and she is in constant pain. She has been waiting for a knee operation for over two years and she has become progressively worse. She feels forgotten and neglected. Does the Prime Minister agree with me that his government is failing and this country is waiting for a Labour Government to bring down nhs waiting lists . {lit government to bring down nhs waiting lists . , government to bring down nhs waiting lists . ,. , government to bring down nhs waiting lists . ,. ,. ,. , lists . Of course i am sorry to hear about the experience lists . Of course i am sorry to hear about the experience of lists . Of course i am sorry to hear about the experience of the about the experience of the honourable ladys constituent and we are putting honourable ladys constituent and we are putting more money, ruling out more are putting more money, ruling out more and are putting more money, ruling out more and bring writing this down, she talks more and bring writing this down, she talks about the difference deliver she talks about the difference deliver to admit to the nhs but her constituents were just look to wales to see constituents were just look to wales to see what is happening when it comes to see what is happening when it comes to to see what is happening when it comes to the nhs. A quarter of the welsh comes to the nhs. A quarter of the welsh population on a waiting list. The worst welsh population on a waiting list. The worst Emergency Care performance in great the worst Emergency Care performance in great britain. People on long waiting in great britain. People on long waiting lists, five times more than they are waiting lists, five times more than they are in waiting lists, five times more than they are in england and on average people they are in england and on average people waiting 40 longer for treatment. That is the reality of labour treatment. That is the reality of labour and the treatment. That is the reality of labourand the nhs, failing. 0 labour and the nhs, failing. 40 ears labourand the nhs, failing. Years ago labourand the nhs, failing. Giii years ago mrs labourand the nhs, failing. 461 years ago mrs thatcher labourand the nhs, failing. 42 years ago mrs thatcher described high inflation as a destroyer of industry, jobs and savings. Does my right honourable friend agree that sentiment is as true today as it was then and what assessment does he make of todays announcement who want to be able to save, get a good job and enjoy a reasonable standard of living . Mi; job and enoy a reasonable standard of livin . G. ,. ,. , job and enoy a reasonable standard oflivini . G. ,. , of living . My honourable friend is riiht of living . My honourable friend is ri. Ht that of living . My honourable friend is right that today of living . My honourable friend is right that today does of living . My honourable friend is right that today does mark of living . My honourable friend is right that today does mark a of living . My honourable friend is| right that today does mark a major moment right that today does mark a major moment for the economy, not only have moment for the economy, not only have we moment for the economy, not only have we have been fighting but it has returned back to normal thanks to the has returned back to normal thanks to the collective hard work and sacrifice to the collective hard work and sacrifice of people up and down the country sacrifice of people up and down the country and it is further proof our plan country and it is further proof our plan is country and it is further proof our plan is working. Mortgage rates have come plan is working. Mortgage rates have come down, energy bills have come down come down, energy bills have come down taxes come down, energy bills have come down. Taxes are being cut and inflation down. Taxes are being cut and inflation now back to normal. Thatcher inflation now back to normal. Thatcher was that when you stick to the plan thatcher was that when you stick to the plan we thatcher was that when you stick to the plan we can look forward to a brighter the plan we can look forward to a Brighter Future and playable friend is right Brighter Future and playable friend is right to Brighter Future and playable friend is right to point out the alternative. Labour party imposing £2000 alternative. Labour party imposing £2000 of alternative. Labour party imposing £2000 of tax rises. That is what the country £2000 of tax rises. That is what the country would put stability at risk. Engtands country would put stability at risk. Englands chief medical officer said that reducing sewage in rivers and seasis that reducing sewage in rivers and seas is a Public Health priority. Highlighting the problems dumping untreated sewage causes. Even the treated sewage which is continuously discharged into rivers and seas contains fecal matter. Water firms are now asking for bills to go up by p are now asking for bills to go up by up to 91 when they have paid out billions to shareholders and neglected pipework and infrastructure. So can the Prime Minister tell me why it is government allowing these companies to destroy our waterways and to make obscene levels of profit whilst making people ill . The obscene levels of profit whilst making people ill . Obscene levels of profit whilst making people ill . The level of overflows we making people ill . The level of overflows we have making people ill . The level of overflows we have seen making people ill . The level of overflows we have seen is overflows we have seen is u na cce pta ble overflows we have seen is unacceptable but we have gone further unacceptable but we have gone further than any other government, monitoring further than any other government, monitoring 100 of overflows up from only 7 monitoring 100 of overflows up from only 7 under labour, investing record only 7 under labour, investing record amounts in our water infrastructure, enshrining in law strict infrastructure, enshrining in law strict targets and introducing unlimited fines for Water Companies told them unlimited fines for Water Companies told them to account. But when it came told them to account. But when it came to told them to account. But when it came to this house, the Party Opposite came to this house, the Party Opposite couldnt even vote for their opposite couldnt even vote for their own opposite couldnt even vote for their own policy. That is because there their own policy. That is because there is their own policy. That is because there is only one party with a plan to protect there is only one party with a plan to protect the environment, the conservative party. Gur to protect the environment, the conservative party. To protect the environment, the conservative party. Our nhs needs to be at the cuttingedge conservative party. Our nhs needs to be at the cuttingedge of conservative party. Our nhs needs to be at the cuttingedge of innovation l be at the cutting edge of innovation and transformation so i very much welcome the recent announcement on Artificial Intelligence in the delivery of radiotherapy, but will my right honourable Friend Committee was going further and faster in the roll out in realising the potential of ai and the latest most innovative tech across our nhs benefiting of course patients but also clinicians . I agree with my honourable friend we need to i agree with my honourable friend we need to ensure our nhs is a world leader need to ensure our nhs is a world leader in need to ensure our nhs is a world leader in medical innovation which is why leader in medical innovation which is why yesterday we announced funding is why yesterday we announced funding to roll out Game Changing ai funding to roll out Game Changing al to radiotherapy departments in england to radiotherapy departments in england and the benefits are clear because england and the benefits are clear because that technology can locate cancer because that technology can locate cancer cells to want to have times quicker cancer cells to want to have times quicker than doctors alone but we wont quicker than doctors alone but we wont stop quicker than doctors alone but we wont stop there, we recognise the huge wont stop there, we recognise the huge potential and that is why the productivity plan announced in the spring productivity plan announced in the Spring Budget will modernise the nhs and ensure our patients get the care they deserve. In and ensure our patients get the care they deserve they deserve. In recent days the Trussell Trust they deserve. In recent days the Trussell Trust revealed they deserve. In recent days the Trussell Trust revealed its they deserve. In recent days the i Trussell Trust revealed its network handed out more than 3. 1 million emergency food parcels in the past year, the most it has ever distributed and nearly 55 years ago. Absolute poverty among children in this country has risen by his highest rate of 30 years and a quarter of all children in this country live below the poverty line. Two thirds of uk children in poverty living families where at least one family works. My constituency stratum one of the worst affected, so does the Prime Minister have any plans to restore the Child Poverty unit or to address the calls for universal Free School Meals or report on any government plans aimed at tackling Child Poverty at all . Nobody wants to see any child grow up nobody wants to see any child grow up in poverty and that is why im pleased the record of this and previous governments has reduced the number of People Living in poverty and the number of children living in poverty thanks to our measures to strengthen the economy but when it comes to supporting children who are vulnerable with their food, we have extended the holiday activity and Food Programme with £200 million of funding and we are investing £30 million in our National School Breakfast Programme which will now run until the end of the summer term. , ,. , term. The best ways of helping eo. Le term. The best ways of helping people with term. The best ways of helping people with the term. The best ways of helping people with the cost term. The best ways of helping people with the cost of term. The best ways of helping people with the cost of living i term. The best ways of helping people with the cost of living is term. The best ways of helping i people with the cost of living is to cut their taxes, keep unemployment low and get inflation down. Things this government are doing. What is the Prime Ministers assessment of how the very welcome news of todays reduction in inflation going to help both businesses and families with the costs they face . Mi; both businesses and families with the costs they face . My honourable friend is exactly the costs they face . My honourable friend is exactly right the costs they face . My honourable friend is exactly right in the costs they face . My honourable friend is exactly right in his friend is exactly right in his analysis of how to help working families and our country and thanks to the difficult decisions we have taken, inflation today is back to normal which is a very welcome moment. Of course there is more work to do, of course people are only just starting to feel the benefits but it is clear the plan is working and that is why we have also been able to deliver significant tax cuts worth £900 to the average worker in our country. This is all progress that would absolutely be put at risk by the Party Opposite. fight that would absolutely be put at risk by the Party Opposite by the Party Opposite. And iconic cornerstone by the Party Opposite. And iconic cornerstone of by the Party Opposite. And iconic cornerstone of the by the Party Opposite. And iconic cornerstone of the uks cornerstone of the uks shipbuilding, defence and Energy Capabilities has seen formic shipyards and now in ploys 1500 workers across the uk, many of whom are my constituents. Approval of the companys expert developer guarantee compa ny� s expert developer guarantee is companys expert developer guarantee is crucial to consolidate its progress, with a primer must ensure this is achieved . Progress, with a primer must ensure this is achieved . This is achieved . Prime minister. Can i this is achieved . Prime minister. Can i thank this is achieved . Prime minister. Can i thank the this is achieved . Prime minister. Can i thank the honourable this is achieved . Prime minister. I can i thank the honourable gentleman for his question . The government is committed to supporting uk shipbuilding right across the nation and ive seen first hand what those companies do and the role they play in the economy. Whilst i cant comment specifically on the details of any individual case due to commercial sensitivity, i can assure him we are working closely with them in their request for uk guaranteed loan, it is under consideration. Can i also paid tribute to the right Honourable Memberfor i also paid tribute to the right honourable member for east belfast for what he does to be a strong advocate for the company, to . The smart new advocate for the company, to . The smart new £15 advocate for the company, to . The smart new £15 million advocate for the company, to . Tta smart new £15 million accident advocate for the company, to . Tt9 smart new £15 million accident and emergency unit at huddersfield Royal Infirmary opened in the early hours of this morning. Will the Prime Ministerjoined me in thanking the team at hri, welcoming the new doctors and nurses recruited for the new accident and emergency unit and agree with me that alongside a new teaching block, the West Yorkshire investment zone and the Trans Pennine rail upgrade shows we are delivering for my constituency . Mr speaker, can i congratulate my honourable friend and his constituents for the brand new a e department at the huddersfield Royal Infirmary. It is a real game changer for residents and isnt the only piece of delivery in his area. You mentioned the Trans Pennine rail upgrade, delivering fasterjourney but also levelling up projects like huddersfields open market and the new teaching block at greenhead couege new teaching block at Greenhead College showing it is the conservatives who are delivering on the priorities of his local community. The priorities of his local communi. , ,. , community. The International Criminal short community. The International Criminal short chief community. The international| criminal short chief prosecutor seeking arrest warrants for israeli and hamas leaders for war crimes and crimes against humanity, this house doesnt aid and about how hamas but it does israel. The most lethal fighterjet on earth raining down how on gaza so will the Prime Minister uphold international law, drop the nonsense about the most robust licensing system in the world and end arms sales to israel and if the icc issued arrest warrants, will he comply and ensure these individuals are arrested . Always nice to see individuals are arrested . Always nice to see the individuals are arrested . Always nice to see the changed individuals are arrested . Always nice to see the changed labourl individuals are arrested . Always nice to see the changed labour party in action. But when it comes to the icc, this is a deeply unhelpful development, mr speaker, which is of course still subject to a final decision. There is no moral equivalence between a democratically elected government exercising its lawful right to self defence and the actions of a terrorist group and the actions of icc to absolutely nothing to get a pause in the fighting, to get the hostages out or aid in. Ifcraig hostages out or aid in. Craig mackinlay hostages out or aid in. Craig mackinlay. Thank hostages out or aid in. Craig mackinlay. Thank you, hostages out or aid in. Craig mackinlay. Thank you, mr i hostages out or aid in. Craig mackinlay. Thank you, mr speaker. This is an emotional mackinlay. Thank you, mr speaker. This is an emotional day mackinlay. Thank you, mr speaker. This is an emotional day for mackinlay. Thank you, mr speaker. This is an emotional day for me mackinlay. Thank you, mr speaker. | this is an emotional day for me and if you would indulge me to say a few thanks because there are a few due. One of those, an apology actually, i have caused the breaking of so many rules today, clapping. I have trainers on because my shoes wouldnt go over the plastic feet and myjacket wouldnt go over the bionic arm. 50, apologies for that. But i wanted to give some thanks, firstly, thanks to you, mr speaker, for being there for me, for coming to visit and i will tell everybody that little story. The rest of the hospital thought i must have been dreadfully ill because they said that guys got the funeral director in already. Laughter you cared for me throughout and i thank you for that. The other person in this chamber i would like to thank is the Prime Minister. He has been with me throughout. He hasnt advertised it, he has been to cb multiple times and to me, that shows the true depth of the character of the true depth of the character of the Prime Minister and thank him for that. To my wife in the chamber, my daughter and otherfamily that. To my wife in the chamber, my daughter and other family members, my father, father in law, i would like to thank my wife for being there every single day of those many months in hospital and she could only do that because of the support of family behind her. In the public gallery, they cant quite see me unfortunately, i many of the staff from the nhs who took me from where i was close to death. From the nhs who took me from where i was close to death. They took me from close to death to where i am today so thank you for that. Im not entirely sure im that happy the two surgeons who took this lot off are there but never mind. But can i ask the Prime Minister, there is a question here, can we please ensure that we embed recognition of early signs of sepsis with it wouldnt have worked for me, mine was too quick and sudden but for many people, they do get a few days. If we can stop somebody ending up days. If we can stop somebody ending up like this, i will say that as a job well done. But also, mr speaker, to impress upon your Health Ministers to allow the provision of appropriate prosthetics, particularly for multi limb amputees at the right time. Thank you, mr speaker. It is so wonderful to hear from my honourable friend, can i thank him for his kind words . But also personally pay tribute to his family who are here and i know first hand the extraordinaryjob they did to support him over the past several months and they all deserve our absolute admiration and thanks for what they have done. On the substantive question he raises, before i do that, can alsojoin in paying tribute to the nhs workers who looked after him . He is right that sepsis is a devastating condition and we are working hard to raise awareness of it and i know he will play a leading role in doing that. Without getting into all the details, i will say that he is right. The nhs itself has recognised this morning that more needs to be done and i can assure him that we will do that. The right honourable friend will discuss with him shortly as well i his suggestions on how we can improve care and awareness for people but i will end where i started earlier today, mr speaker, injust started earlier today, mr speaker, in just saying, started earlier today, mr speaker, injust saying, craig, you inspire each and everyone of us. Thank you. That completes Prime Ministers questions full stop studio questions full stop studio , , , , studio that was an unusual and emotional start studio that was an unusual and emotional start and studio that was an unusual and emotional start and finish studio that was an unusual and emotional start and finish the emotional start and finish the Prime Ministers questions because you will have seen their the conservative mp for south thanet thanking all sorts of people for saving his life and making a personal we move away from jo coburn and touch upon what she was mentioning. Who that moving tribute for south thanet mp Craig Mackinlay. Pmqs thanet mp Craig Mackinlay. Pmqs started with thanet mp Craig Mackinlay. Pmqs started with enthusiastic thanet mp Craig Mackinlay. Pmqs started with enthusiastic applause. Clapping is not mad in the commons, and that is what mr mckinley was referring to. It ended with a moving tribute and again applause for the south thanet mp, who, following sepsis, had to have his limbs, his hands and feet, amputated. He entered that by asking for awareness to be raised about the early signs of sepsis. It wouldnt affect him, in his words, but for others it may make a world of difference. No mention of an election date, and this is something we will touch on with our Political Correspondent, who joins us from westminster. Just touch on those words for Craig Mackinlay. It was quite a consensual pmqs, given what the south thanet mp has been through. Has been through. Wasnt it powerful . Has been through. Wasnt it powerful . Its has been through. Wasnt it powerful . Its not has been through. Wasnt it powerful . Its not often has been through. Wasnt itj powerful . Its not often you has been through. Wasnt it powerful . Its not often you hear, see and even feel an emotional pmqs like that. When Craig Mackinlay arrived in the chamber five minutes orso arrived in the chamber five minutes or so before Prime Ministers questions began, every corner of the house of commons instinctively rose as one and applauded him. That is usually against parliamentary rules for the notjust mps, also the public gallery, which you can see on tv, or rose as one and applauded. I dont think anyone sitting there in the house of commons for pmqs will forget the emotion of that moment in a hurry to top i know i wont. Fast forward to the end, and Craig Mckinley asked a question to the Prime Minister, praised rishi sunak for, and has he said, this wasnt known publicly, for visiting him, he said, often in hospital. He said hed been with him every step of the wife and he also talked about the nhs and his family members but also some serious messages, some substantive policy messages for the Prime Minister about Early Detection of sepsis in the nhs but also the provision of prosthetics. I think everyone can see that Craig Mackinlay is going to become a powerful campaigner on those causes now in the house of commons. Tt was now in the house of commons. It was able to make now in the house of commons. It was able to make a now in the house of commons. It was able to make a little now in the house of commons. It was able to make a little joke now in the house of commons. It was able to make a little joke when now in the house of commons. It was able to make a little joke when it able to make a little joke when it comes to the speaker, so lindsay hoyle, visiting him in hospital. Thats right. He suggested that the speaker, in his formal attire, some people have got the wrong end of the stick about who he was and why he was visiting. But i think its a reminderfor those of us was visiting. But i think its a reminder for those of us who inhabit this place, who cover everything that happens here, and often frankly politics is acrimonious. I think many politicians would show it should be, because they disagree on profound questions of how society should be run. But these people spend a lot of time together across party lines in the chamber, in the coffee cue, in the restaurants and bars and so on, and there are all sorts of cross party causes, and so thatis sorts of cross party causes, and so that is genuine affection for Craig Mackinlay, notjust as someone who has been through an unimaginable human ordeal and spoken powerfully about it, but also as somebody who, to all of those mps, about it, but also as somebody who, to all of those mp5, of whatever party, is a colleague. To all of those mps, of whatever party, is a colleague. To all of those mps, of whatever party, is a colleague. When it comes to what we party, is a colleague. When it comes to what we were party, is a colleague. When it comes to what we were hearing party, is a colleague. When it comes to what we were hearing and party, is a colleague. When it comes to what we were hearing and seeing| to what we were hearing and seeing on social media a bit earlier, its often that what happens in reality is totally different to what you see on social media, because there was so much speculation, especially following the Inflation Figures, that there could potentially be a date for the general election, and we didnt get that. Tts date for the general election, and we didnt get that. We didnt get that. Its not ust social media. I we didnt get that. Its not ust social media. Ii we didnt get that. Its not ust social media. I have i we didnt get that. Its not ust social media. I have been h we didnt get that. Its notjust. Social media. I have been hanging out in parliament for the last two hours or so and its the only thing that anyone i bump into wants to talk about. I dont think anybody knows anything, because a tiny circle of people in downing street know whats happening, and they are not picking up their phones. Thats a bit unusual, because there have been previous bursts of election speculation, and its completely up to rishi sunak when he wants the election to be, any point up to the end ofjanuary election to be, any point up to the end of january 2025, election to be, any point up to the end ofjanuary 2025, so has an election to be, any point up to the end of january 2025, so has an awful lot of power as Prime Minister, but rumours are spreading that he could, and i have a size could, call an election this week or even today, which means the election would, in that scenario, the earlyjuly to dip nobody is confirming that but, strikingly, and unlike previous speculation, nobody is denying it either, and in the commons, stephen flynn, westminster leader of the snp, asked the obvious question, he asked the Prime Minister if he was about to call an election. The Prime Minister did not take the opportunity to guide him away from that id of the top i think a lot of people in westminster are wondering if that was rather suggestive. The Prime Minister picked up on it by saying that there will be a general election in the setup of this year. We are aware of that. When it comes to ministers, they have been told to attend a Cabinet Meeting at 4pm this afternoon, apparently on pain of death. What are they going to be discussing . Surely its got to be a date. , discussing . Surely its got to be a date. , ,~ date. Cabinets happens every date while parliament date. Cabinets happens every date while parliament is date. Cabinets happens every date while parliament is sitting, date. Cabinets happens every date while parliament is sitting, didntl while parliament is sitting, didnt happen yesterday in its usual time slot because the Prime Minister was in vienna, meeting his counterpart, the chancellor. There is a perfectly innocent, at least plausibly innocent, at least plausibly innocent explanation for why the meeting is today. On the other hand, there are plenty of people who are willing to read a non innocent political expedition into that meeting for them i dont know the cabinet ministers who have been invited dont know. We will find out afterwards but at this point there is nothing i can do to enlighten you. Is nothing i can do to enlighten ou. ~ is nothing i can do to enlighten ou. ~ , , is nothing i can do to enlighten ou. , ~ i , , is nothing i can do to enlighten ou. ~ , is nothing i can do to enlighten ou. , you. Thank you for putting some calm on all of this you. Thank you for putting some calm on all of this. When you. Thank you for putting some calm on all of this. When it you. Thank you for putting some calm on all of this. When it comes you. Thank you for putting some calm on all of this. When it comes to, you. Thank you for putting some calm on all of this. When it comes to, we i on all of this. When it comes to, we believe today would be the final day and election could be called for the end ofjune, the 27th, but obviously the Prime Minister is adamant that there will be an election in the second half of the year, so are we talking about earlyjuly . Tt second half of the year, so are we talking about early july . Talking about early july . If the Prime Minister talking about early july . If the Prime Minister announced talking about earlyjuly . Tf tt9 Prime Minister announced election today, if, the election would be in july or earlyjuly most likely on july or earlyjuly most likely on july the 4th, because the way that parliament works, it wouldnt be like that and parliament dissolves, youd have a few days of whats known as wash up, where politicians would try and get laws which are close to the statute book onto the statute book. There would be a frantic few days where they try and complete various pieces of legislation. For example, in that scenario, im sure rishi sunak would try and get his progressive smoking ban into law. He would like that, i am sure, to be part of his platform on which an election would happen. In that scenario, i think we would have to the next wing the week after, which will be an earlyjuly election. Second half of the year starts in 110 days when rishi sunak first started saying a general election would be in the second half of the air, which he has been saying since january, of the air, which he has been saying sincejanuary, most of the air, which he has been saying since january, most assumed meat the autumn. But that does include, clearly, the possibility ofjuly. Th clearly, the possibility ofjuly. In that case, on that note, we are going to leave it. Thank you for the caveats. Our Political Correspondent at westminster, who is monitoring and watching pmqs for us. As henry was saying, still no date. We are going to return to the post Office Inquiry, where Paula Vennells continues to give evidence. Bottom ofthe continues to give evidence. Bottom of the page. Continues to give evidence. Bottom of the page, please. Continues to give evidence. Bottom of the page, please. For continues to give evidence. Bottom of the page, please. For context, i continues to give evidence. Bottom of the page, please. For context, if you scroll of the page, please. For context, if you scroll up of the page, please. For context, if you scroll up a little bit, please. An email you scroll up a little bit, please. An e mail from michael rudd to allan cook of an e mail from michael rudd to allan cook of the an e mail from michael rudd to allan cook of the 15th Of October 2009, so by this cook of the 15th Of October 2009, so by this time cook of the 15th Of October 2009, so by this time there had been the computer by this time there had been the Computer Weekly article of may 2009, the chair Computer Weekly article of may 2009, the chair fsa had been informed and complaints the chair fsa had been informed and complaints started to come in for the mr complaints started to come in for the mr rudkin is saying to mr cook i presume the mr rudkin is saying to mr cook i presume you have already seen the article presume you have already seen the article in presume you have already seen the article in the Convenience Store Magazine Article in the Convenience Store magazine. Is this article is likely to have magazine. Is this article is likely to have any impact on the contracts we already to have any impact on the contracts we already have with their existing banking we already have with their existing banking partners etc . Next paragraph, a horizon Pressure Group is to meet paragraph, a horizon Pressure Group is to meet at Fenny Compton hole in the midlands. If we scroll up, please, the midlands. If we scroll up, please, mr cook was reply, a little more, please, mr cook was reply, a little more, please, mr cook got a reply, thank more, please, mr cook got a reply, thank you. More, please, mr cook got a reply, thank you, the 15th Of October, i know thank you, the 15th Of October, i know and thank you, the 15th Of October, i know and this is to mary fagan, do you remember what she was . What function you remember what she was . What function did she perform at this time . Function did she perform at this time . , , , time . The Group Communications director for time . The Group Communications director for roy time . The Group Communications director for roy mail. Time . The Group Communications director for roy mail. Can time . The Group Communications director for roy mail. Can you time . The Group Communications director for roy mail. Can you get somebody to director for roy mail. Can you get somebody to see director for roy mail. Can you get somebody to see what director for roy mail. Can you get somebody to see what we director for roy mail. Can you get somebody to see what we can director for roy mail. Can you get i somebody to see what we can about this developing situation outlined below . This developing situation outlined below . A this developing situation outlined below . A sticky building nervousness about below . A sticky building nervousness about the below . A sticky building nervousness about the accuracy of the Horizon System, about the accuracy of the Horizon System, and the press on it now. Its system, and the press on it now. Its the system, and the press on it now. Its the more strange in that the system its the more strange in that the system has been stable and reliable for many system has been stable and reliable for many years now and there is no logicat for many years now and there is no logical reason why this fear should develop logical reason why this fear should develop now. My instincts tell that in a recession Sub Postmasters will have their in a recession Sub Postmasters will have their hand in the till and choose have their hand in the till and choose to have their hand in the till and choose to bring the technology when they are choose to bring the technology when they are found to be short of cash. Bizarrety they are found to be short of cash. Bizarrely, the author of the e mail below bizarrely, the author of the e mail below was bizarrely, the author of the e mail below was a senior Sub Postmaster who i below was a senior Sub Postmaster who i know below was a senior Sub Postmaster who i know well but whose wife was found who i know well but whose wife was found to who i know well but whose wife was found to be who i know well but whose wife was found to be deporting us. We have prosecuted for the can you see that . Yes. Prosecuted for the can you see that . Yes if prosecuted for the can you see that . Yes. ,. , prosecuted for the can you see that . Yes. ,. , yes. If we scroll up the page, lease. Yes. If we scroll up the page, please we yes. If we scroll up the page, please. We can yes. If we scroll up the page, please. We can say yes. If we scroll up the page, please. We can say that i yes. If we scroll up the page, please. We can say that this | yes. If we scroll up the page, i please. We can say that this email please. We can say that this e mail chain please. We can say that this e mail chain was please. We can say that this e mail chain was sent to you. Yes . Yes. What would chain was sent to you. Yes . Yes. What would you chain was sent to you. Yes . Yes. What would you have chain was sent to you. Yes . 193 what would you have understood in retail what would you have understood in retail e mail which said, we have prosecuted retail e mail which said, we have prosecuted the Sub Postmaster wife . Prosecuted the Sub Postmaster wife . The prosecuted the Sub Postmaster wife . The same prosecuted the Sub Postmaster wife . The same as i mentioned before. I beg your pardon. Which was that a Sub Postmaster was prosecuted by external authorities and the case was made by the post office. I wouldnt have read into that that the post office was the prosecuting authority. The post office was the prosecuting authori. ~ , � the post office was the prosecuting authori. 9. , � , the post office was the prosecuting authori. 9 �. , authority. Wasnt in the case that it was commonly authority. Wasnt in the case that it was commonly understood i authority. Wasnt in the case that it was commonly understood by l authority. Wasnt in the case that i it was commonly understood by the senior it was commonly understood by the Senior Management that the post office Senior Management that the post office investigated its own cases and prosecuted in some cases . And thats and prosecuted in some cases . And thats why and prosecuted in some cases . And thats why this is being spoken about thats why this is being spoken about openly here, we prosecuted her . About openly here, we prosecuted her . ,. , about openly here, we prosecuted her . , , , her . No, that is on the understanding her . No, that is on the understanding i her . No, that is on the understanding i would | her . No, that is on the i understanding i would have her . No, that is on the understanding i would have had. Her . No, that is on the understanding i would have had. If we scroll back down to the e mail from we scroll back down to the e mail from mr we scroll back down to the e mail from mr cook, he says that his instincts from mr cook, he says that his instincts are that, in a recession, subways instincts are that, in a recession, subways with their hands in the till blame subways with their hands in the till blame the subways with their hands in the till blame the technology when they are found blame the technology when they are found to blame the technology when they are found to be short of cash. Was that the sentiment you agreed with . | the sentiment you agreed with . Never the sentiment you agreed with . I never used the word. I thought the sentiment you agreed with . T never used the word. I thought it was the wrong word. Never used the word. I thought it was the wrong word. What about the more important was the wrong word. What about the more important thing was the wrong word. What about the more important thing about was the wrong word. What about the more important thing about hands i was the wrong word. What about the more important thing about hands in the tilt more important thing about hands in the till customer neither calling them the till customer neither calling them subbies or people with their hands them subbies or people with their hands in them subbies or people with their hands in the till. The only understanding i had had was hands in the till. The only understanding i had had was in that conversation understanding i had had was in that conversation with understanding i had had was in that conversation with george understanding i had had was in that| conversation with George Thompson understanding i had had was in that i conversation with George Thompson in 2010. , . , conversation with George Thompson in 2010. , , , ~ conversation with George Thompson in 2010. ,. , 2010. That can come down, thank you. Can i turn 2010. That can come down, thank you. Can i turn to 2010. That can come down, thank you. Can i turn to the 2010. That can come down, thank you. Can i turn to the issue 2010. That can come down, thank you. Can i turn to the issue of can i turn to the issue of complaints about bugs, errors and defects . Complaints about bugs, errors and defects . In complaints about bugs, errors and defects . In your witnessing, you say at paragraph 104, page 39, i had no knowledge at paragraph 104, page 39, i had no knowledge of the Horizon System when i knowledge of the Horizon System when ijoined knowledge of the Horizon System when ijoined the knowledge of the Horizon System when ijoined the post office. I had not heard ijoined the post office. I had not heard of ijoined the post office. I had not heard of any problems with the system heard of any problems with the system before ijoined, norwas heard of any problems with the system before ijoined, nor was i briefed system before ijoined, nor was i briefed a system before ijoined, nor was i briefed a very during my induction. No one briefed a very during my induction. No one at briefed a very during my induction. No one at the post office told me there no one at the post office told me there were bugs, errors or defects or that there were bugs, errors or defects or that the there were bugs, errors or defects or that the system lacked integrity or that the system lacked integrity or that or that the system lacked integrity or that there had been allegations or that there had been allegations or concerns about bugs, errors or defects or concerns about bugs, errors or defects in or concerns about bugs, errors or defects in the system. Can we please look at defects in the system. Can we please look at your defects in the system. Can we please look at your first witness statement, page 300, paragraph 634 . 634. And then if we go over the page, please and then if we go over the page, please. Yes, just at the foot of the previous please. Yes, just at the foot of the previous page. Thank you. You are talking previous page. Thank you. You are talking here previous page. Thank you. You are talking here about second site and, in the talking here about second site and, in the second line from the bottom on the in the second line from the bottom on the page, you say, reflecting on this now. On the page, you say, reflecting on this now. If on the page, you say, reflecting on this now, if they, second sight, has completed this now, if they, second sight, has completed those individual cases, we might completed those individual cases, we might have completed those individual cases, we might have got closer to the real problem might have got closer to the real problem. The large numbers, 600 plus, problem. The large numbers, 600 plus, of problem. The large numbers, 600 plus, of unknown bugs and defects being plus, of unknown bugs and defects being corrected by fujitsu without the post being corrected by fujitsu without the post office, as i believe at the time all the post office, as i believe at the time all my the post office, as i believe at the time all my knowledge. Can you please time all my knowledge. Can you please explain where the figure of 600 plus please explain where the figure of 600 plus bugs and defects comes from . 600 plus bugs and defects comes from . | 600 plus bugs and defects comes from . ,. , from . Ithought, i may have misremembered, from . Ithought, i may have misremembered, i from . Ithought, i may have misremembered, i thoughtl from . I thought, i may have i misremembered, i thought that from . I thought, i may have misremembered, i thought that was. Raised in the horizon issues trial. And the. I cant remember where i had that figure from, but i think it was from the horizon issues trial or work done right at the very end, in terms of numbers in the system. Essentially i am asking where you ot essentially i am asking where you got the essentially i am asking where you got the number from 600 plus bugs and defects in horizon. I cant remember now. Im very sorry, but its a recent understanding of a number, not one that i had at the time. Understanding of a number, not one that i had at the time. When did you iet the that i had at the time. When did you get the understanding . That i had at the time. When did you get the understanding . I that i had at the time. When did you get the understanding . I think, i after, either from after, eitherfrom reading something in the horizon issuesjudgment after, eitherfrom reading something in the horizon issues judgment or in documentation very late on, before that trial took place. [30 documentation very late on, before that trial took place. That trial took place. Do you think it was whilst that trial took place. Do you think it was whilst you that trial took place. Do you think it was whilst you were that trial took place. Do you think it was whilst you were still that trial took place. Do you think it was whilst you were still in i that trial took place. Do you think it was whilst you were still in the | it was whilst you were still in the post office . | it was whilst you were still in the post office . It was whilst you were still in the i post office . There post office . I cant remember. There is a briefing post office . I cant remember. There is a briefing note post office . I cant remember. There is a briefing note prepared post office . I cant remember. There is a briefing note prepared for post office . I cant remember. There is a briefing note prepared for the i is a briefing note prepared for the litigation is a briefing note prepared for the litigation Steering Group in November 2018 which says that Statistical Analysis conducted by robert Statistical Analysis conducted by robert walden, the defence expert, calculates robert walden, the defence expert, calculates that the absolute worst they had calculates that the absolute worst they had been 672 bugs in horizon over the they had been 672 bugs in horizon over the last 18 years. Do you think thats over the last 18 years. Do you think thats what over the last 18 years. Do you think thats what you are referring to . Possibly thats what you are referring to . Possibly. And not from the time, because i didnt see Steering Group papers. I dont believe so, anyway. Are you aware of any documents produced are you aware of any documents produced in, for example, 2013 or in the years produced in, for example, 2013 or in the years which followed which demonstrate or suggest that there were 600 plus bugs and defects in horizon . Were 600 plus bugs and defects in horizon . | were 600 plus bugs and defects in horizon . , � , , horizon . I dont believe so, no. When you horizon . I dont believe so, no. When you refer horizon . I dont believe so, no. When you refer to horizon . I dont believe so, no. When you refer to 600 horizon . I dont believe so, no. When you refer to 600 plus i horizon . I dont believe so, no. I when you refer to 600 plus bugs, are you referring to bugs of any and all types you referring to bugs of any and all types or you referring to bugs of any and all types orjust bugs that have caused or could types orjust bugs that have caused or could have caused balanced shortfalls in sub post offices . | shortfalls in sub post offices . Imagine shortfalls in sub post offices . I imagine im referring to any shortfalls in sub post offices . T imagine im referring to any and all sorts. I think the two experts agreed on the left 21 or 29 that could have affected branch accounts. Thank you. So this essentially is referring thank you. So this essentially is referring to aft acquired knowledge essentially something that you are saying. Essentially something that you are saying. I essentially something that you are saying, i read a document now but i didnt saying, i read a document now but i didnt know saying, i read a document now but i didnt know about it at the time. If second didnt know about it at the time. If second site didnt know about it at the time. If second site had carried on with its work, second site had carried on with its work. It second site had carried on with its work. It may second site had carried on with its work, it may have established this. Very possibly, yes. That work, it may have established this. Very possibly. Yes very possibly, yes. That can come down. Very possibly, yes. That can come down can very possibly, yes. That can come down can i very possibly, yes. That can come down. Can i turn very possibly, yes. That can come down. Can i turn to very possibly, yes. That can come down. Can i turn to a very possibly, yes. That can come down. Can i turn to a series i very possibly, yes. That can come down. Can i turn to a series of i down. Can i turn to a series of issues down. Can i turn to a series of issues raised with you by Sub Postmaster is, by gattaca and second Sub Postmaster is, by gattaca and second site Sub Postmaster is, by gattaca and second site about the existence of bugs, second site about the existence of bugs, errors and defects in horizon . Can i bugs, errors and defects in horizon . Can i start bugs, errors and defects in horizon . Can i start with the debtor to report . Can i start with the debtor to report . You know that, on the 1st Of October report . You know that, on the 1st Of October 2018, they produce a report on fraud october 2018, they produce a report on fraud and nonconformance in the post office . | on fraud and nonconformance in the post office . Post office . I dont have any records of post office . I dont have any records of this post office . I dont have any records of this document i post office . I dont have any records of this document or. Post office . I dont have any i records of this document or the report. Records of this document or the re iort. ,. ,. ,. , report. You are watching bbc news and weve just report. You are watching bbc news and weve just been report. You are watching bbc news and weve just been watching i report. You are watching bbc news and weve just been watching the i and weve just been watching the post office quarry, where the former post office quarry, where the former post office quarry, where the former post office boss, Paula Vennells, has been giving evidence into the inquiry, into the horizon or scandal. Its been a difficult morning so far, at times she has been tearful and at times they have been tearful and at times they have been discussing the attempted suicide of a Sub Postmaster, so a difficult morning at the post Office Inquiry. We are continuing to monitor that. We have got a live page on our website and you can also join bbc iplayer, where this inquiry is being streamed live. For the time being, we are stepping away from Paula Vennells, the former boss of the post office, giving evidence. She hasnt spoken about this in public in more than a decade. 50 a lot of interest in what she has to say the tip but now its time for the one oclock news. Today at one, the former post office boss Paula Vennells breaks down in tears at the inquiry into the horizon it scandal. At the beginning of her evidence she apologised and admitted that she had lied to mp5. I fully accept now that the post office. Excuse me. The rate of inflation has fallen to 2. 3 , its lowest level in nearly three years, but is it making a difference to the cost of Everyday Essentials . Rishi sunak repeats his position that the general election will be in the second half of the year as speculation runs rife, but he could call it as soon as this week. A rare Standing Ovation in the house of commons for Craig Mackinlay, the mp who lost his hands and feet to sepsis. And uncapped 18 year old ben doak is a shock inclusion in Steve Clarkes provisional scotland squad for the euros. And coming up on bbc news. We hear from we hearfrom one of we hear from one of great britains best chances of topping the podium at the olympics, kealy hodgson. Good afternoon. The former boss of the post office, Paula Vennells, has told the post Office Inquiry that she is sorry for the miscarriage ofjustice of Sub Postmasters and she broke down in tears under questioning