Really getting used to it. How do you go about setting up an interview . It do you go about setting up an interview . Interview . It is an endlessly changing interview . It is an endlessly changing field. Interview . It is an endlessly changing field. Sometimes. Interview . It is an endlessly changing field. Sometimes there is a certain circuit of interviews coming in the publishers have the big titles they want to present and there are political cycles being filmed, there is a kind of movie Production Cycle but a lot of that is a mixture of people who might be able to do Something Interesting they want to talk about and theres no particular rhyme or reason to it. ~ ,. , particular rhyme or reason to it. ~ , i, , , it. My heart sightless infinity as a junker it. My heart sightless infinity as a junker but it. My heart sightless infinity as a junker but to it. My heart sightless infinity as a junker but to have it. My heart sightless infinity as a junker but to have your| as a junker but to have your heart thinking but are you setting out to get people to reveal more than they have revealed before . I reveal more than they have revealed before . Revealed before . I dont do unkets revealed before . I dont do junkets and revealed before . I dont do junkets and they revealed before . I dont do junkets and they are revealed before . I dont do junkets and they are for. Revealed before . I dont do i junkets and they are for when you have a Movie Star In The Film Company arrange this for literally 20 or 30 journalists to sit in a roundtable of groups and have a couple of minutes each. Luckily, i dont get anywhere near that and i think that is the kiss of death. I dont think anyone is that anything interesting in those circumstances. Without, i ask for at least one hour or even four hours, if i can keep them talking. 50 even four hours, if i can keep them talking. Even four hours, if i can keep them talking. So how long did ou et them talking. So how long did you get out them talking. So how long did you get out of. Them talking. So how long did you get out of. A them talking. So how long did you get out of. A whole them talking. So how long did| you get out of. A whole day she said you get out of. A whole day she said more you get out of. A whole day she said more to you get out of. A whole day she said more to you you get out of. A whole day she said more to you then you get out of. A whole day j she said more to you then she sat in the book. Sat in the book. That is literally. Sat in the book. That is literally, if sat in the book. That is literally, if i sat in the book. That is literally, if i had sat in the book. That is literally, if i had to sat in the book. That is literally, if i had to describe in one sentence but i do for a living, i try to get the interviewee to Say Something that have not. Werent intending to say and possibly that they might regret saying. Thats, that i think you would have to include that sort of subclause in the sentence, yeah. And how do you do it . Because i know when you won this latest of the five awards, the judges praised your Meticulous Research and psychologically astute questioning. How do you prepare . Oh, i mean, katie, its such a mixture. The simple thing to answer is the preparation question, which isjust, you just prepare you prepare forensically and exhaustively and you Read Everything you can that theyve ever written, you try and watch everything or listen to everything theyve said, you read all previous interviews. So, how many weeks of work would go into one interview . It will depend upon the person. Some people, its fairly light. With some people, it could be a whole week of reading, watching, listening and, crucially, thinking. So, when you feel as if youve just youve got this encyclopaedic knowledge of this person, its almost like sort of sitting your finals on a different person for each exam. Once you feel like you know absolutely everything of course, 99 of what youve read or learned about them, you wont actually. It wont come up in the interview. It may not even come up in the piece when you write it. But here, it gets slightly mysterious, katie, which is what ive found is that somehow, if you walk into an interview armed with this enormous sort of body of research, even though you never explicitly identify that youve done it, some sort of weird by some strange alchemy, its communicated to the person that youre interviewing that youve really done your homework. And what ive found is that if you havent done your homework, that also communicates itself and that is the kiss of death. So, the very simple way to explain how you get people to open up is to show that youve done the work before you get there and they definitely need to feel that youve shown them the respect and the courtesy of learning everything. And sometimes, you know, youll Say Something and theyll laugh and theyll go, my god, you know more about my life than i do thats a tick in my head, you know . Thats good. And how much of it is then what happens in the room . I mean, obviously youve prepared but then, i mean, i think youve got, for example, quite a good theory about Body Language fascinating. Well, this, i didnt know about at all, katie, until the pandemic came along. Because i had always assumed that the art is all about the words that i say to get them to say words that its all words, right . Thats myjob. And then the pandemic happened and i had to interview people on zoom and thats when i discovered that, actually, id invested all this significance in words and id also thought that myjob is all about getting them to open up to talk and i discovered very quickly, doing this job on zoom, that i was wrong about both of those things. And the first one is that so much of the job is getting people to stop talking because theyve obviously i mean, i might be doing it right now as im speaking to you, katie the person being interviewed doesnt really know what the interviewer wants or and so, its very easy, unwittingly, to kind of go off around the houses and bore the interviewer to tears and theyre sitting there im often sitting there in myjob thinking, 0h, geez, the clock is ticking ive only got 90 minutes with you. Lets not waste ten on an anecdote ive heard you tell ten times before. And at that point, you have to get them to stop thats the critical thing. How do you do that . Thats the interesting thing. It turns out that you do it with your body. My body, if i was interviewing you and you were waffling on about something. Often happens not the interviewing, you interviewing me, but the waffling, definitely, on my part. Id think, oh, god, katie, please. Youve got to be quiet. And almost unconsciously, my body would adjust in really subtle ways that will tell your body to stop talking and, crucially, your head wouldnt even realise that ive told you to stop talking. And then, through that mechanism, this sort of sense of trust and collaboration is maintained. But when youre on screens, you literally have to just interrupt people. And i learnt very quickly from experience you do that two times, certainly three, its the interview is toast. Theyre never going to say anything they hadnt planned to somebody whos just interrupted. I find myself nodding a lot in interviews and then, i look back at the camera and i think, 0h, youjust look like a nodding donkey. Its terrible i dont know what you do, ros. Im sure i do im sure i do plenty of nodding. Im just listening to you, decca, and im wondering in the moment, can you tell if an interview will translate into a great written piece . Because, of course, youre writing these interviews up. Can does one automatically follow the other . Absolutely. Oh, you can. Theres like a bell in your head. And every time the interviewee says something quote worthy, interesting, new, it can be partlyjust a turn of phrase part of myjob is to get people to speak in the most colloquial of terms possible because the difference between an interview and a written piece is that youre speaking off the cuff, that youre sounding like a human being, and we express who we are so much through how we say as what we say. And so, im listening out excuse me for flicking im listening out the whole time for turns of phrase that tell us who they are and also, things that they havent said before and its literally like a bell going off my head ting, ting, ting, ting, ting and the worst place to be in my life is 45 minutes into an interview and the bell has not tinged. Thats when i start to panic and thats when you go wildly off piste. Decca, thank you very much indeed for being with us. We appreciate it. Youre going to stay because were going to carry on talking about creativity in a moment. I want to talk first about creativity in terms of tv formats because weve got the creatives behind two of the most popular tv formats of the moment with us. Dean nabarro, co creator of the 1 club, is here in the studio. The 1 club is a Hit Quiz Show thats itv� s second biggest entertainment series of the Year Congratulations on that, dean. Its been sold in 12 territories including the us and weve heard today ukraine and hungary so, well done. Thank you. And matt bennett also joins us. Hes shines Senior Executive producer and one of the creators of channel 4s series hunted, the reality show that sees 12 ordinary people go on the run from a team of expert hunters. Lets hear a clip of hunted. Right, team. Listen in weve got 12 fugitives at large on the london underground. Network. Great that. That is a little bit of the series hunted. Matt, youre with us. Its, by any measure, been successful. The seventh Series Finale aired on channel 4 on sunday. Youve sold this format all around the world. I wonder, if you go right back to the beginning, what was your original pitch for what the series would be . Yeah, were chuffed to bits, i as you can imagine, with how its been received this year. Really, really good. And it started for me ten years ago, when i was approached. By the Creative Director tim whitwell who, incidentally, made that Prison Series with Gordon Ramsay that decca was talking about. Synchronicity yeah, there you go and so, yeah, he approached me and i was filming a series. Id obviously upset him because he put me on an island with 12 other hairy blokes for a month to starve and film for a series called the island with bear grylls. And when we got off that island, he had this other idea, which was which turnsl into hunted, which really is trying to answer that question about whether we can go on the run in 21st centuryl britain with all the technology around us. And this was back in sort of 2014. L and you may or may not remember, but britain had been revealed as one of the most surveilled countries in the world, you know, we were up there and still are, i think, i with china and russia and edward snowden, that fella who was american,. Or still is american but now in exile in russia, had revealed how much information was being shared between our governments. And so, that was really. Prompting, in the papers, discussion about National Security and individual privacy so, we were, we thought you know, we didnt want. To make a dry documentary. About the powers of the state, so we wanted to tackle this sort of overwhelmingly important issue of our time in a sort of modern, entertaining piece of television. So, youre making an Entertainment Format but youre also trying to make some big points. Once you got it on air, was that what the audience was interested in . Or were they just interested in seeing if the contestants got caught . Ultimately, they were just interested in whether the contestants got l caught, and we had i mean, its an incredibly, i incredibly complex mechanic to make hunted and when were making it, we need a staff of 300 people to get it. On the screen and the key person behind that is a fella called kevin 0leary and if anyone follows twitterl during the hunted broadcast, youll find kevin on therel because hes our referee. But he was also was formerly a very Senior Metropolitan Police officer. He oversaw the security for the 2012 olympics. And was once head of the undercover unit l for the met. And he helped us he agreed to come on board, really, to help us create the mechanic that allowed us to replicate the powers of the state, so long i as we only revealed and its important i say this because so long as we only. Revealed methods that are out there in the public domain. So, there are obviously. Still policing methods that i dont know about but obviously kevin does i that we just dont show in hunted for sort of, l you know, proper, grown up reasons, really. But it took us nine months it took us nine months to design that and test that mechanic and, you know, l we even sent out so, i for example, just to find where cctv cameras were, we sent out 800 freedom i of Information Requests to map where all the state cctv cameras are in britain. We designed a method of reporting anpr cameras. We even had anpr cameras in our cars, in the hunters cars. We worked out how to listen to phone calls. I we employed ncc, an Amazing Cybersecurity company, to lend us their key people. So, an awful lot of planning is what im picking up. Yeah, a lot of planning. Matt, id like to bring dean nabarro in because, dean, youre the cofounder of magnum media and the co creator of the 1 club on itv, as i said, alongside andy auerbach. I just think everyone should hear a clip of that, too, just for fairness. Anyone has a chance to win because this show is the ultimate leveller. Its the quiz that tests how your brain really works as our questions are all about logic and common sense. So, who will make it to the end and answer a question only 1 | of the country can get right and win up to £100,000 . | well, that was lee mack, the host of the 1 club. And just explain for people who havent seen it although many people have, as i said, you know whats the idea behind the show . Well, the idea is that theres 100 people and that we have taken a whole lot of questions which are all Brain Teasers, so, theyre not things that are, whats the capital of france . They dont have an actual kind of General Knowledge answer. And weve essentially taken them off to one of those places you might get a regular survey, like, who are you going to vote for . What do you think of this Washing Machine . , whatever a yougov, kantar, whatever, poll. And weve asked them across these questions. Weve sent these questions off Brain Teasers to a Cross Section of the country and we are able, with that, to know that 90 of the country can answer this question or 80 this question all the way down to the 1 question that only 1 of people can answer. Which makes you feel really good which makes you feel really good. And of course, with 100 people, theres a Natural Whittle which goes down you know, the assumption is that if those percentages are correct, youd get a whittle down to the 1 , and thats really it. And you can ask yourself matt, you know, used the idea about, you know, a question a lot of things hes been doing as a question, then turning it into entertainment, and i think thats probably the similar thing to the 1 club. Theres a question at the heart of it, which is, you know, how clever are you . But in the kind of the real world of thinking, you know . It doesnt really matter whether youre eight or 80, it doesnt matter what school you went to, doesnt really matter kind of what level of education or your memory ive got a great memory but doesnt mean that im particularly clever. Theres all those sorts of things. And where do you fit in . Are you in the top 50, as lee just said . Or are you the top ten or are you in that 1 . And its bragging rights. And as were talking about creativity and well come back to it much, much more later. Yeah. How did you come up with the idea . I mean, i know your Production Company is much smaller than shine, the one that matt works for. Yeah, were tiny. I think its just two of you. Its a miracle that its even on tv well, hold on youve got six Million People watching it every week, so something went right. Something went right. Its those 10,000 hour things, isnt it, that people talk about . You finally get that way. Andy and i andy auerbach, probably one of the cleverest people ive ever met in my life. Also one of the nicest, by the way we worked together, we worked together for years, wed always share an office together, wed sit together and get our lunch together, come back and i would always go through the daily mail, the mail 0nline or the mirror or whatever one of my great sort of pleasures at lunchtime. And every now and again, i would see one of those kind of clickbait kind of titles, which is, you know, you have to have an iq of over 150, only people with an iq of 150 will be able to answer this question, or only 5 of people in the country can see it. It was always one of those sort of, can you spot the bear in the woods . , or whatever, it would be, or how many, you know, those sort of things . And i was always really good at them. And i would go over like i said, to andy, who is one of the cleverest people ive met and im not and i would go, ive got it, ive got it. Have you . And he would never get it, neven and it would be like my best bit of the day. Id love it. And i would get these and every now, you know, id see them over months and then, one time, i cant remember exactly when it was, i saw a question and it was a kind of essentially an equation like, numbers in a sequence. And there was a car covering it, and ijust couldnt work it out. I took it home to my son, who was 11 or maybe 12. Hes 18 next week, by the way thats how Long Development takes in tv. And he got it in ten seconds under ten seconds. And that was the thing, which is, if an 11 or 12 year old could get something, perhaps that shows you that it doesnt really matter how old you are, there was something in it. And then, we wrote some questions, we sent them off, we thought, you know, actually, no disrespect to the mail 0nline or whatever it is but, you know, is it true that only 5 of people could do that, or 10 . So, we want to know the truth. We sent it off, we came back. And then, that became a fascinating thing to us, which was, what percentage were we . And just briefly, its sold in 12 territories, including america. Yes. Did you set out to create a format that would work across the world . No, not at all. We. Did it come as a nice surprise . Yeah, it was a lovely surprise we didnt set out to do anything, really. We were just. Apart from make a great quiz show we were just amusing ourselves with an idea and it very, very quickly became clear to us that there was something there. I genuinely wanted to know where i was because i was quite good at it, and i wanted to know where he was, right . And it turned out the commissioners who commissioned it also wanted to know where they were. Thats exactly right. And wrote ten questions, we got the percentages made and we sent them off to itv and we wanted to know, you know, where are you . What do you think . And they were kind of gripped by that. So, that was really what it was. And then, i think once you sort of take it from there, it grows. To a certain extent, none of us really know why these things take off. I always say to itv its not as if we tried harder on this one than we did in any other show. Itsjust that there is something, i think, that engages people. And people always talk about, you know, where television now, the sort of death of television, all those sorts of things and, actually, there is a lot of shared viewing still. Theres that sort of event viewing. And i think or i hope that happens with the 1 club on itv on a Saturday Night is that people are watching it together and that doesnt mean, by the way, theyre in a room together but theyre wanting to share that theyve got a question or what the question is and how theyve done. And that means we know people are watching it in their living room together but they might be with their family, one of them is in derby, one of them is in hull, one of them is in london, but theyre on a whatsapp group. Competing with each other. To be the cleverest. Yeah, or its on x, or twitter or whatever you want to call it, and theyre talking about it. And we love that engagement, and thats the thing thats kind of mapped out across the world theyre doing the same thing. And youre describing formats you develop for itv and others and, of course, within those formats are advertising and thats something that Sirjohn Hegarty knows an awful lot about. You founded the Advertising Agency Bartle Bogle Hegarty a good while back now. And, in fact, the last time you were on The Media Show, you were telling us about the famous levis ad with nick kamen and how you wanted to put him in briefs in the laundrette, the regulator wouldnt let you, so you had to put him in boxer shorts, and the rest is history. And the rest is history. We managed to sell boxer shorts to the world, and we have to thank the regulator. And, as i always say, calvin klein never thanked us. Never. Not one thank you i didnt even get a free pair of boxer shorts . 0utrageous. Shocking and now, you are the cofounder of a consultancy called the garage soho and you also teach an eight week course called The Business Of Creativity, and this was particularly why we wanted to get you in to find out what you would get on an eight week course on creativity. Well, the first thing is weve called it The Business Of Creativity because, ultimately, with all. The Technology Everything that you can do out there i and ai appearing like that the differentiator is going l to be your application i of creativity, your ability to imagine something better. And what we try and get businesses to understand is, first of all, to realise i they are all creative were all creative, ive already said that and that the very foundation of a business is a creative act. Starting a business is a creative act, you know . What are you going to do . You have to have an idea. What are you going i to call your product . Whats it going to look like . Whats it going to sound like . All these things. Are creative acts. And the danger in our economy is that people see lots of businesspeople see i creativity as something that you occasionally engage in, i where its driving everything. Innovation. Nobody would say, well, we dont need innovation, do we . Well, innovation is driven by creative thinking, understanding it, defining it two types of creativity. Whats at the core of creativity . All of these things make you better at it. Im quite interested how everyone, in their different ways, has highlighted how questions helps drive their creativity. Whether its decca, youre thinking about, well, what questions do i want to ask as a priority . Or the two guys from the tv world saying, look, were trying to answer questions. And i guess when you were creating adverts for brands, sirjohn, you would also have been thinking, what are the questions i need to answer on behalf of the audience for this brand . Well, theres actually something more fundamental and you may laugh at this but its absolutely the greatest advertising, the greatest communication, the greatest interviews seeks the truth. And its the truth that is. Motivating, it is the truth that drives people. Because, ultimately, what we all want is power power to persuade, power. To inform, power to get more out of life all of those things. And it is that fundamental. Thing of the truth which gives us power, and that is at the core of creativity. Decca, i can see you listening intently here and you look like youre ready to ask a question. Well, i wanted to ask dean what percentage he was, obviously im quite curious to know that surely 1 i noted you referred to it many times but didnt identify the percentage. Do you know what . Im putting myself down as a 20 guy, and im really happy with that. How are you feeling with that . Does it sit ok with you . Thats pretty good, actually. What do you reckon youd be, sirjohn . Sorry . What do you reckon youd be . I think id be appalling, actually, at it because i kind of spend my life in my head, Thinking Of Ijust cant stopj thinking of ideas. So, i dont engage with other things, which is terrible in some ways but when youre teaching creativity, do you believe in the importance of systems, of processes . I always remember the story of Lennon And Mccartney being kind of locking themselves in a room and saying kind of, dont come out until youve got a hit . Do you think that can bring about moments . Yes, processes can be. Very informative and can be very productive. I mean, there are two wonderful if you want to understand creativity, there are two. Wonderful things to watch. One is peterjacksons the beatles series, i where theyre very formalised. They come in at ten oclock, have a cup of tea, sit down, start playing. Then watch exile on a documentary on the Rolling Stones making exile on main street. Chaos. I mean, you know, vast amounts of illegal substances, fio process. Both of them created genius products, genius albums. I so, youve got to be processes are good but you mustnt let processes. Override your creativity. They must be the servant of creativity. Can ijust ask a question . Because ive been very inspired by a documentary i saw this weekend called eno, with brian eno in it. Its a generative documentary. Its actually quite something. But one of the things he said was he banishes but its a no but zone when theyre creating, whether thats heroes for david bowie or, you know, all the other incredible music that hes created. No buts in the room. The minute he says all Creative Ideas can be killed by you saying but immediately at the beginning. Is that right . Absolutely. And, you know, when youre, you know, i dont Brainstorm Sessions are usually a complete waste of time. Theres evidence to say, Brainstorm Sessions. I youre going to be quoted across the country tomorrow in offices. It is, its true no great idea has come out of a brainstorm session. None. Even really bad ideas seldom come out of a brainstorm session. Yes, even bad ones. Itsjust a desert of ideas. I can talk about 1,000. Ideas that came out of, you know, one person said, or two people working together of course, thats it. So, you know, the idea that you can sort of get people l together and make them do these things isjust, you know, itjust isnt the case. I it doesnt work. And where does Technology Come into tech . Because, i mean, i mentioned that eno documentary, its generative thats a new way of making a documentary. But in terms of creativity, where does Technology Come in . Well, creativity and technologyl have always gone hand in hand. I mean, you know, ialways say, if we didnt have technology,. All wed be able to do. Is tell each other a story And Sing A Song. You know, the invention of the guitar was a phenomenal piece of technology. The piano incredible. The microphone, you know,| allowed a singer to stand up in front of 1,000 people And Sing A Song to one person. And is Generative Al on that list as well . Well, of course, its going to be. | its going to help. In all kinds of ways. But youve got to remember generative ai is sucking up. Everything thats around it, i so its sucking up the rubbish, the misinformation, as well as all the other stuff, so its going to be a major concern. I we dont yet really know how its going to work but weve l got to engage with it to find out how it works. Well, we have a thing, in terms of the tech and this is going to sound crass because im talking about the show and something that we do on it but we have an app on it which is about playing live. And whats great about that is that people at home are playing on an app, live, answering the questions, and theyre going through a very, very similar experience to the people in the studio, and thats a genuine enhancement of audience engagement. Of course it is, yeah. And, you know, so those sorts of things are, you know, to be encouraged. Were going to leave it there but thank you very much, indeed, to all of you for that conversation on creativity. Thanks tojohn hegarty in particularfor coming in. Thats it for today. Thank you to all our guests. Well be back same time next week. So, its goodbye from me, katie razzall. And from me, ros atkins. Well see you soon. Bye bye. And if youd like to hear a longer version of todays show, search bbc The Media Show wherever you get your bbc podcasts. Hello. Well, it has been gradually warming up over the last couple of days, at least for most of us. The weather, on the other hand, a little hit and miss. And in fact, that is the outlook for the next few days. Some warm sunshine, yes, but also a chance of catching some rain. Now, Weather Fronts are close by you can see it here on the Satellite Picture and that also means some damp weather through the early hours and into wednesday morning, particularly around the irish sea coasts and also around the North Sea Coasts. But for most of us, its a dry start to the day, a little misty and murky in places. Here are the temperatures first thing around 9 in london, 8 in belfast, maybe the glens of scotland around 11 5 celsius. Now, many of us will wake up to some sunshine, maybe hazy skies in places. And i think it should stay generally dry through the day, although a few showers are possible inland in central parts of the uk, and also damp conditions at times are possible along the North Sea Coast where itll be coolest. Temperatures in newcastle, only 14 degrees deeper inland itll be closer to 18, perhaps 20. And then wednesday night were expecting some heavy rain to come in from the south. This could be Thundery Rain and downpours are likely almost anywhere across southern england, perhaps into the midlands and also southern parts of wales, and flashes of lightning certainly a possibility. So thats how we start thursday. Then heres that weather front, which could bring the thundery weather for a time across some southern parts of the uk. Now, the air� s relatively warm its actually coming in out of the east south east. But because the north sea is quite cold, see that wind blowing off the north sea . It will actually drag in that cooler air to the North Sea Coasts. So that does mean that places like newcastle and hull could only be around, say, 13, 14, 15, whereas out towards the west it could be as high as 20 degrees celsius. So that was thursday. This is friday, still a possibility of some showers brought in by that easterly breeze, maybe the odd crack of thunder as well. The best of the weather probably in Western Parts of scotland on friday. And in one or two spots we could even see highs reaching 20 degrees celsius. The North Sea Coast, once again, will be fairly chilly. So that outlook then, yes, it is going to be a bit of a mixed bag. Its not going to be particularly cold temperatures, in fact, closer to the average for the time of the year. Thats it for me. Bye bye. Live from washington, this is bbc news. Hundreds of Police Officers enter the campus of Columbia University in new york to disperse pro palestinian protesters. Dozens have been arrested. Pressure grows for a Ceasefire Deal to be reached as israel doubles down on carrying out an offensive in the south of gaza. Plus, a new yorkjudge fines donald trump for violating a gag order in his hush money trial. Hello. Im sumi somaskanda. Thank im sumi somaskanda. You forjoining us. It has been another evening of unrest on campuses across the us. We want to show you some images from new york. This was the scene at Columbia University tuesday night. The nypd confirmed that an operation was under way there. According to cbs news, there were 50 arrests made. Local Radio Reports said that students were told to shelter in place. And according to a university email, administrators told students that Non Compliance may result in disciplinary action. The universitys president is asking police to stay on campus until may 17. We can show you the moment