was good enough but we made a huge effort to equip our country with what was necessary. sometimes you didn't have ppe, _ what was necessary. sometimes you didn't have ppe, there _ what was necessary. sometimes you didn't have ppe, there was - what was necessary. sometimes you didn't have ppe, there was an - what was necessary. sometimes you didn't have ppe, there was an issue | didn't have ppe, there was an issue at times, was there not, in relation to ppe not being culturally appropriate? people with beards, religious outfits, things like that. or you wear that? that religious outfits, things like that. or you wear that?— or you wear that? that was not excluded to _ or you wear that? that was not excluded to me, _ or you wear that? that was not excluded to me, i— or you wear that? that was not excluded to me, i was - or you wear that? that was not l excluded to me, i was concerned or you wear that? that was not - excluded to me, i was concerned that everybody should have the best possible protection. flan everybody should have the best possible protection.— everybody should have the best possible protection. can you share with us reflections _ possible protection. can you share with us reflections on _ possible protection. can you share with us reflections on how- possible protection. can you share with us reflections on how the - with us reflections on how the findings of this report influenced subsequent actions and policies aimed at mitigating these disparities? i aimed at mitigating these disparities?— aimed at mitigating these disparities? aimed at mitigating these disarities? ~ . ., disparities? i think what we wanted to do was to _ disparities? i think what we wanted to do was to make _ disparities? i think what we wanted to do was to make sure _ disparities? i think what we wanted to do was to make sure that - disparities? i think what we wanted to do was to make sure that the - to do was to make sure that the incredible front line staff at the nhs had greater protection above all by being less overworked and one of the things that the pandemic was a terrible time but one of the things that we did was not only to embark on a programme of hospital building, but recruiting 50,000 more nurses and i think we are well on the way to achieving that now. if you are a nurse or a front line worker, then clearly one of the best ways to mitigate the risk that you face and the disproportionate risk you face as a black, asian ethnic minority worker is having a neck repair plans to help you. that was one of the key objectives of the programme. it is a very large programme, the repent of other things the nhs now has, more people in it than it is ever had... thank you. we have limited time, mr johnson _ thank you. we have limited time, mr johnson i— thank you. we have limited time, mr johnson. . , �* ., thank you. we have limited time, mr johnson. . , ., , johnson. i am sure you're not trying to talk me — johnson. i am sure you're not trying to talk me down. _ johnson. i am sure you're not trying to talk me down. i _ johnson. i am sure you're not trying to talk me down. i would _ johnson. i am sure you're not trying to talk me down. i would not. - johnson. i am sure you're not trying to talk me down. i would not. you | to talk me down. i would not. you would not — to talk me down. i would not. you would not dream _ to talk me down. i would not. you would not dream of _ to talk me down. i would not. you would not dream of that, - to talk me down. i would not. you would not dream of that, mr - to talk me down. i would not. you - would not dream of that, mrjohnson. would not dream of that, mrjohnson. given the first indications of startling disproportionate rates of infection in ethnic minority communities which began to emerge in late march, early april, can we agree on this? can we agree that there were earlier opportunities for more substantial engagement, can we agree on that? j more substantial engagement, can we agree on that?— agree on that? i don't know what you mean by that? _ agree on that? i don't know what you mean by that? let _ agree on that? i don't know what you mean by that? let me _ agree on that? i don't know what you mean by that? let me be _ agree on that? i don't know what you mean by that? let me be blunt, - agree on that? i don't know what you mean by that? let me be blunt, yourj mean by that? let me be blunt, your government — mean by that? let me be blunt, your government could _ mean by that? let me be blunt, your government could a _ mean by that? let me be blunt, your government could a lot _ mean by that? let me be blunt, your government could a lot of— mean by that? let me be blunt, your government could a lot of done - mean by that? let me be blunt, your government could a lot of done a - mean by that? let me be blunt, your government could a lot of done a lot| government could a lot of done a lot more, a lot earlier?— more, a lot earlier? well, we did would have _ more, a lot earlier? well, we did would have we _ more, a lot earlier? well, we did would have we could _ more, a lot earlier? well, we did would have we could to - more, a lot earlier? well, we did would have we could to get - more, a lot earlier? well, we did would have we could to get all. more, a lot earlier? well, we didl would have we could to get all our staff the equipment that we... it staff the equipment that we... ut was not enough, mrjohnson, was it? we worked incredibly hard and fast to get the equip and we needed. that doesn't mean that i am not conscious of the immense effort... we doesn't mean that i am not conscious of the immense effort. . ._ of the immense effort... we were cla -|n~ of the immense effort... we were clapping for— of the immense effort... we were clapping for them. _ of the immense effort... we were clapping for them, dear _ of the immense effort... we were | clapping for them, dear member? of the immense effort... we were i clapping for them, dear member? i of the immense effort... we were - clapping for them, dear member? i do and imdb conscious of the sacrifice they made. and imdb conscious of the sacrifice the made. ., , and imdb conscious of the sacrifice the made. ., .,, . and imdb conscious of the sacrifice they made-— they made. last topic and then i will sit down _ they made. last topic and then i will sit down and _ they made. last topic and then i will sit down and shut _ they made. last topic and then i will sit down and shut up. - they made. last topic and then i will sit down and shut up. in - they made. last topic and then i | will sit down and shut up. in your witness statement, you say, quote, i was not provided with, and did not consider any equality impact assessments while making decisions about imposing, easing or making exceptions to npi is, but that is not to say i didn't receive and consider many documents containing details of the effects of lockdown across society or equalities and distributional impacts. end of code. question, in the absence of such assessments, can you shed light on the sources of intelligence or information that informed you, informs your understanding of the disproportionate impact of npi is on ethnic mineral to groups? what were the sources of your intelligence and information?— information? there was data that i saw, i information? there was data that i saw. i cannot _ information? there was data that i saw, i cannot tell _ information? there was data that i saw, i cannot tell you _ information? there was data that i saw, i cannot tell you exactly - information? there was data that i saw, i cannot tell you exactly the l saw, i cannot tell you exactly the provenance but there was data that suggested that when you come to look down is, people from the bang that she communities were four times more lucky to be engaged in closed sectors, people from the pakistani community where, i think, twice as likely to be engaged in closed sectors. from my own extensive work as chairman of transport for london, and all the work i did as mayor, it told me that the massive disproportionate impact measures such as closures of retail hospitality and so on are likely to have on those very groups. in a way, i did not need... you have on those very groups. in a way, i did not need...— i did not need... you didn't need the intelligence, _ i did not need... you didn't need the intelligence, you _ i did not need... you didn't need the intelligence, you knew? - i did not need. .. you didn't need the intelligence, you knew? i - i did not need... you didn't need| the intelligence, you knew? i was iaettin the intelligence, you knew? i was getting data _ the intelligence, you knew? i was getting data but _ the intelligence, you knew? i was getting data but i _ the intelligence, you knew? i was getting data but i also _ the intelligence, you knew? i was getting data but i also knew- the intelligence, you knew? iwas getting data but i also knew that these measures were likely to be disproportionately.— disproportionately. thank you. i concede 30 _ disproportionately. thank you. i concede 30 seconds _ disproportionately. thank you. i concede 30 seconds under- disproportionately. thank you. i concede 30 seconds under my l disproportionately. thank you. i - concede 30 seconds under my time. thank you both. i will ask a small number of questions on behalf of the long covid-i9 — questions on behalf of the long covid—i9 groups. matt hancock and dominic_ covid—i9 groups. matt hancock and dominic cummings have covid—19 groups. matt hancock and dominic cummings have said that they were advised in early 2020 about the possibility— were advised in early 2020 about the possibility of longer term sequoia the of— possibility of longer term sequoia the of covid—19 by both patrick balance — the of covid—19 by both patrick balance and chris witty. on the 17th of may _ balance and chris witty. on the 17th of may 2020, you shared an article about— of may 2020, you shared an article about people reporting a prolonged that my— about people reporting a prolonged that my symptoms of covid—19 in a whatsapp — that my symptoms of covid—19 in a whatsapp group with them all. in short. _ whatsapp group with them all. in short. did — whatsapp group with them all. in short, did you also receive advice about— short, did you also receive advice about long—term sequelae from chris witty at— about long—term sequelae from chris witty at that time? not about long-term sequelae from chris witty at that time?— witty at that time? not as far as i can remember— witty at that time? not as far as i can remember about _ witty at that time? not as far as i can remember about that - witty at that time? not as far as i can remember about that time. i | witty at that time? not as far as i i can remember about that time. i do remember repeatedly asking for advice and i think that i finally got a paperfrom memory in summer of 2021. got a paper from memory in summer of 2021. , . ., ., ., got a paper from memory in summer of 2021. , _, ., ., ., 2021. yes, we will come to that. you were never — 2021. yes, we will come to that. you were never provided _ 2021. yes, we will come to that. you were never provided with _ 2021. yes, we will come to that. you were never provided with scientific . were never provided with scientific advice _ were never provided with scientific advice doubting the existence of long _ advice doubting the existence of long covid. yet you said that you were _ long covid. yet you said that you were only — long covid. yet you said that you were only persuaded that long covid existed _ were only persuaded that long covid existed in— were only persuaded that long covid existed injune 2021, you have referred — existed injune 2021, you have referred to that. i existed in june 2021, you have referred to that.— referred to that. i did not say that, i referred to that. i did not say that. l was — referred to that. i did not say that, i was only _ referred to that. i did not say that, i was only given - referred to that. i did not say i that, i was only given scientific advice on long covid injune 21. yes, i was asking questions about when _ yes, i was asking questions about when you — yes, i was asking questions about when you are persuaded. you were only convinced by chris witty that long _ only convinced by chris witty that long covid was a serious problem when _ long covid was a serious problem when from — long covid was a serious problem when from july 2020, you had been receiving _ when from july 2020, you had been receiving letters from patient advocates and members of parliament asking _ advocates and members of parliament asking for— advocates and members of parliament asking for formal recognition of long _ asking for formal recognition of long covid. in september 2020, matt hancock— long covid. in september 2020, matt hancock reminded you about long covid _ hancock reminded you about long covid in _ hancock reminded you about long covid. in october 2020, the hancock reminded you about long covid. in 0ctober2020, the nhs announced a five—point plan for long covid _ announced a five—point plan for long covid and _ announced a five—point plan for long covid and on — announced a five—point plan for long covid and on the 13th of october 2020. _ covid and on the 13th of october 2020, sir— covid and on the 13th of october 2020, sir patrick balance advised you about — 2020, sir patrick balance advised you about considering long covid in a cabinet _ you about considering long covid in a cabinet meeting and he said in evidence — a cabinet meeting and he said in evidence here that he described long covid to _ evidence here that he described long covid to you and you were sceptical about _ covid to you and you were sceptical about it _ covid to you and you were sceptical about it. when was this? 13th of october— about it. when was this? 13th of october 2020. about it. when was this? 13th of 0ctober2020. i about it. when was this? 13th of october 2020. i have given you a sequence — october 2020. i have given you a sequence ofjuly to october. why wasn't _ sequence ofjuly to october. why wasn't this overwhelming body of advice _ wasn't this overwhelming body of advice and correspondence in 2020 sufficient _ advice and correspondence in 2020 sufficient to persuade you that long covid _ sufficient to persuade you that long covid was _ sufficient to persuade you that long covid was a — sufficient to persuade you that long covid was a serious problem at that time? _ covid was a serious problem at that time? |_ covid was a serious problem at that time? ., �* ., i. ., ~' time? i don't want you to think, first of all, _ time? i don't want you to think, first of all, don't _ time? i don't want you to think, first of all, don't want _ time? i don't want you to think, first of all, don't want any - time? i don't want you to think, first of all, don't want any body| time? i don't want you to think, l first of all, don't want any body to think that i didn't think that it could be a serious problem. what i wanted to know was the evidence. i wanted to know was the evidence. i wanted to know was the evidence. i wanted to understand what exactly it consisted in and how i should explain it to people, what the symptoms exactly where, and what kind of a syndrome it really was. i was having some difficulty getting a clear picture. that was the reality. this is a question, it appears, in relation — this is a question, it appears, in relation to— this is a question, it appears, in relation to formal written advice but in _ relation to formal written advice but in october 2020, referred to the first report _ but in october 2020, referred to the first report into long covid, a research _ first report into long covid, a research paper that had already been published _ research paper that had already been published on long covid at that time _ published on long covid at that time it— published on long covid at that time. it laid out symptom until on long _ time. it laid out symptom until on long covid — time. it laid out symptom until on long covid. if you wanted advice, why didn't — long covid. if you wanted advice, why didn't you simply advice for that report to be provided to you? | that report to be provided to you? i did that report to be provided to you? did ask for that report to be provided to you? i did ask for the evidence, i did ask for reports to be provided and eventually one was provided. i think there is a slight conceptual, first of all i wish to again recognise the hurt that those words must have caused to people suffering from long covid and the very real suffering that they endured. but what, when i referred to gulf war syndrome, i was making, i think, referred to gulf war syndrome, i was making, ithink, irritable referred to gulf war syndrome, i was making, i think, irritable question and i'm sure that you would not say that everybody suffering from gulf war syndrome was mistaken. i don't want to develop _ war syndrome was mistaken. i don't want to develop that _ war syndrome was mistaken. i don't want to develop that gulf _ war syndrome was mistaken. i don't want to develop that gulf war - want to develop that gulf war syndrome but i want to ask you, do you agree _ syndrome but i want to ask you, do you agree that you never asked for the report— you agree that you never asked for the report to be provided to you? | the report to be provided to you? certainly the report to be provided to you? i certainly asked for a vague report to be provided into long covid and it was eventually provided but much later on. ., ., ., later on. so, not that report, do ou later on. so, not that report, do you agree? _ later on. so, not that report, do you agree? yes. _ later on. so, not that report, do you agree? yes. thank- later on. so, not that report, do you agree? yes. thank you. - later on. so, not that report, do you agree? yes. thank you. in | later on. so, not that report, do i you agree? yes. thank you. in july you agree? yes. thank you. injuly 2021. _ you agree? yes. thank you. injuly 2021, the _ you agree? yes. thank you. injuly 2021, the cabinet office planned a policy _ 2021, the cabinet office planned a policy which accepted high prevalence of coverage 19. it noted that the _ prevalence of coverage 19. it noted that the strategy was to live with covid-19 — that the strategy was to live with covid—19 without restrictions and one rist— covid—19 without restrictions and one risk was noted as higher rate of long _ one risk was noted as higher rate of long covid — one risk was noted as higher rate of long covid. the autumn winter plan of 2021 _ long covid. the autumn winter plan of 2021 2022 published in september 2021 emphasised building defences through— 2021 emphasised building defences through pharmaceutical interventions and for— through pharmaceutical interventions and for long covid, only acknowledge the need _ and for long covid, only acknowledge the need for treatment. there was no effective _ the need for treatment. there was no effective treatment for long covid as there _ effective treatment for long covid as there were no pharmaceutical interventions to prevent its development and you agree the best way to— development and you agree the best way to prevent long covid is to prevent — way to prevent long covid is to prevent infection of covid—19. did the government choose to adopt a policy— the government choose to adopt a policy which you knew would result in a significant number of people, including — in a significant number of people, including young people, suffering from long covid?— including young people, suffering from long covid? what we did was to t to fiiht from long covid? what we did was to try to fight covid-19, _ from long covid? what we did was to try to fight covid-19, to _ from long covid? what we did was to try to fight covid-19, to try _ from long covid? what we did was to try to fight covid-19, to try to - try to fight covid—19, to try to fight infection and mortality in people of all ages by stopping the spread of the disease. i thought that by fighting covid—19, you could fight long covid. that by fighting covid-19, you could fight long covid.— fight long covid. yes, but you understand — fight long covid. yes, but you understand that _ fight long covid. yes, but you understand that in _ fight long covid. yes, but you understand that in relation - fight long covid. yes, but you understand that in relation to | fight long covid. yes, but you i understand that in relation to the decisions — understand that in relation to the decisions relating to covid—19 and long _ decisions relating to covid—19 and long covid, they have different symptomatology. long covid, they have different symptomatology— long covid, they have different sm-itomatolo. . ., , symptomatology. that was precisely what i symptomatology. that was precisely what i wanted _ symptomatology. that was precisely what i wanted to _ symptomatology. that was precisely what i wanted to understand - symptomatology. that was precisely what i wanted to understand and - symptomatology. that was precisely | what i wanted to understand and that was why i requested the report on the advice that i did. when i spoke about gulf war syndrome, what i meant it literally was, can we, can somebody explain to me, because gulf war syndrome, as i am sure, nobody would say that everybody suffering from it. i would say that everybody suffering from it. ., ., ., ., would say that everybody suffering fromit. ., ., ., ., ., from it. i want to move away from that, with — from it. i want to move away from that, with respect. _ from it. i want to move away from that, with respect. more - from it. i want to move away from that, with respect. more cases - from it. i want to move away from that, with respect. more cases of| that, with respect. more cases of long _ that, with respect. more cases of long covid — that, with respect. more cases of long covid and you have said a number— long covid and you have said a number of— long covid and you have said a number of times that messaging was incredibly— number of times that messaging was incredibly important, messaging in the end _ incredibly important, messaging in the end was the most important tool we had _ the end was the most important tool we had to— the end was the most important tool we had to do with a virus. why didn't— we had to do with a virus. why didn't you _ we had to do with a virus. why didn't you therefore communicate the risk of— didn't you therefore communicate the risk of long _ didn't you therefore communicate the risk of long covid to the public so they could — risk of long covid to the public so they could take measures to protect themselves was mark the way to protect— themselves was mark the way to protect yourself against long covid is to avoid — protect yourself against long covid is to avoid getting,. it does not follow, — is to avoid getting,. it does not follow, does it? there are other specific— follow, does it? there are other specific rings. follow, does it? there are other specific rings— follow, does it? there are other specific rings. don't believe there is a way of _ specific rings. don't believe there is a way of contracting _ specific rings. don't believe there is a way of contracting long - specific rings. don't believe there is a way of contracting long covidj is a way of contracting long covid without having covid—19. it is a way of contracting long covid without having covid-19.- without having covid-19. it has a different risk _ without having covid-19. it has a different risk profile. _ without having covid-19. it has a different risk profile. forgive - without having covid-19. it has a| different risk profile. forgive me, don't wish in _ different risk profile. forgive me, don't wish in anyway _ different risk profile. forgive me, don't wish in anyway to _ different risk profile. forgive me, don't wish in anyway to minimise | different risk profile. forgive me, i don't wish in anyway to minimise the importance of what you are saying but i thought that the best way to fight the possibility of people having long—term sick rely from covid—19 was to stop them from getting covid—19 in the first place. do you accept there is an indiscriminate risk to children and the young — indiscriminate risk to children and the young which is a different risk profile _ the young which is a different risk profile specific to long covid? that was one of— profile specific to long covid? that was one of the _ profile specific to long covid? that was one of the things i profile specific to long covid? tryst was one of the things i was very interested to understand. i think that very well might be the case but it is still also true, logically, that the best way to stop those individuals contracting covid—19 is to stop the spread of the disease for stop. to stop the spread of the disease for sto -. ., , to stop the spread of the disease forsto. .,, , , to stop the spread of the disease forsto. , , ., for stop. people can suffer from covid-19 and — for stop. people can suffer from covid-19 and nothing _ for stop. people can suffer from | covid-19 and nothing specifically covid—19 and nothing specifically was done — covid—19 and nothing specifically was done about the risk of long covid? — was done about the risk of long covid? do— was done about the risk of long covid? do you accept that? i don't acce -t covid? do you accept that? i don't accept that — covid? do you accept that? i don't accept that nothing _ covid? do you accept that? i don't accept that nothing was _ covid? do you accept that? i don't accept that nothing was done - covid? do you accept that? i don'tl accept that nothing was done about the risk of long covid because the government did everything that we could to stop the spread of covid—19. could to stop the spread of covid-19-— could to stop the spread of covid-19. , ., , , covid-19. last question, yesterday, ou said covid-19. last question, yesterday, you said in — covid-19. last question, yesterday, you said in your— covid-19. last question, yesterday, you said in your view, _ covid-19. last question, yesterday, you said in your view, some - covid-19. last question, yesterday, you said in your view, some people| you said in your view, some people thought— you said in your view, some people thought they may be suffering from lon- thought they may be suffering from long covid but there was in fact another— long covid but there was in fact another cause. the report summarised in october— another cause. the report summarised in october 2020 address those very concerns— in october 2020 address those very concerns that the lack of recognition of the pattern of symptoms by the public and by health care services meant to people frequently felt they were experiencing not believed in this left many— experiencing not believed in this left many feeling isolated and alone in coping _ left many feeling isolated and alone in coping with the disease. that left many feeling isolated and alone in coping with the disease.— in coping with the disease. that is the same with _ in coping with the disease. that is the same with gulf _ in coping with the disease. that is the same with gulf war— in coping with the disease. that is| the same with gulf war syndrome, in coping with the disease. that is - the same with gulf war syndrome, by the same with gulf war syndrome, by the way. i the same with gulf war syndrome, by the wa . ., ., ., ,~' the way. i have not asked the ruestion the way. i have not asked the question yet- _ the way. i have not asked the question yet. it _ the way. i have not asked the question yet. it concluded - the way. i have not asked the l question yet. it concluded that the way. i have not asked the - question yet. it concluded that more recognition — question yet. it concluded that more recognition and more support was needed _ recognition and more support was needed. having come to accept, as you have _ needed. having come to accept, as you have now, that long covid is a debiiitating — you have now, that long covid is a debilitating and disabling illness, causing _ debilitating and disabling illness, causing almost 2 million adults and chiidren— causing almost 2 million adults and children to — causing almost 2 million adults and children to suffer, do you now recognise _ children to suffer, do you now recognise your prolonged disbelief in long _ recognise your prolonged disbelief in long covid contributed to the deiay— in long covid contributed to the delay in— in long covid contributed to the delay in recognising long covid, lead to— delay in recognising long covid, lead to unwell people not being believed and has made decisions were taken _ believed and has made decisions were taken on _ believed and has made decisions were taken on releasing npi is without consideration of long covid. no,| consideration of long covid. no, i don't think— consideration of long covid. no, i don't think that, _ consideration of long covid. no, i don't think that, if _ consideration of long covid. no, i don't think that, if you _ consideration of long covid. no, i don't think that, if you look - consideration of long covid. no, i don't think that, if you look at - don't think that, if you look at what she happened from a very early stage, we started investing in research into long covid and i think 50 million followed by another 75 million into trying to establish the exact pathology of the illness. but the decisions were taken on releasing npi is without consideration of long covid. do you accept _ consideration of long covid. do you accept that?— accept that? no, i think they were iioin to accept that? no, i think they were going to be _ accept that? no, i think they were going to be risks _ accept that? no, i think they were going to be risks involved - accept that? no, i think they were going to be risks involved in - going to be risks involved in releasing the npi is, they were going to be, releasing the npi is, they were going to he, basically the risk that the disease would spread, that was the disease would spread, that was the thing we wanted to fight. thank ou. the thing we wanted to fight. thank you- please — the thing we wanted to fight. thank you- please can _ the thing we wanted to fight. thank you. please can i _ the thing we wanted to fight. thank you. please can i complete - the thing we wanted to fight. thank you. please can i complete the - you. please can i complete the question — you. please can i complete the question. do you accept that widespread transmission of the disease, — widespread transmission of the disease, without public occasions on the risk— disease, without public occasions on the risk of— disease, without public occasions on the risk of long covid, and without other— the risk of long covid, and without other mitigation measures meant that people _ other mitigation measures meant that people could not tick steps to protect — people could not tick steps to protect themselves from long covid? do you _ protect themselves from long covid? do you accept that? no, i think people were given plenty of advice to plant them protect themselves from covid—19 and i soon as we began to understand what long covid was and its risks, we also publicised the risks of long covid as well. thank you. good afternoon, i ask thank you. — good afternoon, i ask questions on behalf— good afternoon, i ask questions on behalf of— good afternoon, i ask questions on behalf of a — good afternoon, i ask questions on behalf of a number _ good afternoon, i ask questions on behalf of a number of _ good afternoon, i ask questions on behalf of a number of children's . behalf of a number of children's rights _ behalf of a number of children's rights organisations. _ behalf of a number of children's rights organisations. can - behalf of a number of children's rights organisations. can i- behalf of a number of children's rights organisations. can i start| behalf of a number of children's . rights organisations. can i start by seeing _ rights organisations. can i start by seeing if— rights organisations. can i start by seeing if we — rights organisations. can i start by seeing if we can— rights organisations. can i start by seeing if we can agree _ rights organisations. can i start by seeing if we can agree on - rights organisations. can i start by seeing if we can agree on it- rights organisations. can i start by. seeing if we can agree on it matters which _ seeing if we can agree on it matters which i _ seeing if we can agree on it matters which i hope — seeing if we can agree on it matters which i hope are _ seeing if we can agree on it matters which i hope are uncontroversial. i which i hope are uncontroversial. firstly, _ which i hope are uncontroversial. firstly, in— which i hope are uncontroversial. firstly, in march _ which i hope are uncontroversial. firstly, in march 2020 _ which i hope are uncontroversial. firstly, in march 2020 when - which i hope are uncontroversial. i firstly, in march 2020 when schools were closed — firstly, in march 2020 when schools were closed for— firstly, in march 2020 when schools were closed for most _ firstly, in march 2020 when schools were closed for most children, - firstly, in march 2020 when schools were closed for most children, he i were closed for most children, he believed — were closed for most children, he believed that _ were closed for most children, he believed that schools _ were closed for most children, he believed that schools should - were closed for most children, he believed that schools should only| believed that schools should only clue is _ believed that schools should only clue is a — believed that schools should only ciue is a last— believed that schools should only clue is a last resort, _ believed that schools should only clue is a last resort, if— believed that schools should only clue is a last resort, if necessaryl clue is a last resort, if necessary to save — clue is a last resort, if necessary to save lives _ clue is a last resort, if necessary to save lives and _ clue is a last resort, if necessary to save lives and protect - clue is a last resort, if necessary to save lives and protect the - clue is a last resort, if necessary. to save lives and protect the nhs. is to save lives and protect the nhs. is that _ to save lives and protect the nhs. is that right? _ to save lives and protect the nhs. is that right? i— to save lives and protect the nhs. is that right?— is that right? i certainly believed that the closure _ is that right? i certainly believed that the closure of _ is that right? i certainly believed that the closure of schools - is that right? i certainly believed that the closure of schools was l is that right? i certainly believed that the closure of schools was a very, very damaging thing for kids, particularly, as i said earlier on, for kids on lower incomes. secondly, the reason that _ for kids on lower incomes. secondly, the reason that you _ for kids on lower incomes. secondly, the reason that you believe - for kids on lower incomes. secondly, the reason that you believe that - the reason that you believe that schools — the reason that you believe that schools i— the reason that you believe that schools i suggest— the reason that you believe that schools i suggest should - the reason that you believe that schools i suggest should only. the reason that you believe that. schools i suggest should only close as a last _ schools i suggest should only close as a last resort _ schools i suggest should only close as a last resort was _ schools i suggest should only close as a last resort was that _ schools i suggest should only close as a last resort was that you - as a last resort was that you recognised _ as a last resort was that you recognised at _ as a last resort was that you recognised at that _ as a last resort was that you recognised at that time - as a last resort was that youl recognised at that time when as a last resort was that you - recognised at that time when we went into lockdown — recognised at that time when we went into lockdown in _ recognised at that time when we went into lockdown in march _ recognised at that time when we went into lockdown in march 2020 - recognised at that time when we went into lockdown in march 2020 that - into lockdown in march 2020 that school _ into lockdown in march 2020 that school closures _ into lockdown in march 2020 that school closures would _ into lockdown in march 2020 that school closures would have - into lockdown in march 2020 that school closures would have a - school closures would have a devastating, _ school closures would have a devastating, lasting, - school closures would have a | devastating, lasting, harmful school closures would have a - devastating, lasting, harmful impact on many— devastating, lasting, harmful impact on many children, _ devastating, lasting, harmful impact on many children, particularly- on many children, particularly vulnerable _ on many children, particularly vulnerable children— on many children, particularly vulnerable children in- on many children, particularly vulnerable children in terms l on many children, particularlyl vulnerable children in terms of their— vulnerable children in terms of their development, _ vulnerable children in terms of their development, their- their development, their socialisation, _ their development, their socialisation, their- their development, their- socialisation, their educational attainment, _ socialisation, their educational attainment, life _ socialisation, their educational attainment, life chances, - socialisation, their educational attainment, life chances, their physical— attainment, life chances, their physical health _ attainment, life chances, their physical health and _ attainment, life chances, their physical health and their- physical health and their psychological _ physical health and their. psychological well— being? physical health and their- psychological well— being? we physical health and their- psychological well—being? we did psychological well— being? we did recognise — psychological well—being? we did recognise that. _ psychological well—being? we did recognise that. given _ psychological well—being? we did recognise that. given those - psychological well—being? we did - recognise that. given those answers, can we _ recognise that. given those answers, can we also— recognise that. given those answers, can we also agree _ recognise that. given those answers, can we also agree that _ recognise that. given those answers, can we also agree that the _ recognise that. given those answers, can we also agree that the primary . can we also agree that the primary problem _ can we also agree that the primary problem in — can we also agree that the primary problem in march _ can we also agree that the primary problem in march 2020 _ can we also agree that the primary problem in march 2020 was - can we also agree that the primary problem in march 2020 was not i can we also agree that the primaryl problem in march 2020 was not the fact that _ problem in march 2020 was not the fact that schools _ problem in march 2020 was not the fact that schools were _ problem in march 2020 was not the fact that schools were closed - problem in march 2020 was not the fact that schools were closed for. fact that schools were closed for most _ fact that schools were closed for most children _ fact that schools were closed for most children to _ fact that schools were closed for most children to save _ fact that schools were closed for most children to save lives - fact that schools were closed for most children to save lives and i most children to save lives and protect — most children to save lives and protect the _ most children to save lives and protect the nhs, _ most children to save lives and protect the nhs, the _ most children to save lives and protect the nhs, the probleml most children to save lives and - protect the nhs, the problem was, that prior— protect the nhs, the problem was, that prior to— protect the nhs, the problem was, that prior to schools _ protect the nhs, the problem was, that prior to schools being - protect the nhs, the problem was, that prior to schools being closed, i that prior to schools being closed, there _ that prior to schools being closed, there was — that prior to schools being closed, there was no — that prior to schools being closed, there was no proper— that prior to schools being closed, there was no proper plan. - that prior to schools being closed, there was no proper plan. there . that prior to schools being closed, . there was no proper plan. there was no ciearty— there was no proper plan. there was no clearly established _ there was no proper plan. there was no clearly established framework, . no clearly established framework, there _ no clearly established framework, there was — no clearly established framework, there was no _ no clearly established framework, there was no guidance _ no clearly established framework, there was no guidance for- no clearly established framework, there was no guidance for schoolsj no clearly established framework, i there was no guidance for schools on remote _ there was no guidance for schools on remote education— there was no guidance for schools on remote education and _ there was no guidance for schools on remote education and no _ there was no guidance for schools on l remote education and no arrangements for delivering _ remote education and no arrangements for delivering face—to—face _ for delivering face—to—face education _ for delivering face—to—face education to— for delivering face—to—face education to vulnerable i for delivering face—to—face - education to vulnerable children under— education to vulnerable children under the — education to vulnerable children under the new— education to vulnerable children under the new social— education to vulnerable children under the new social distancing i under the new social distancing instructions _ under the new social distancing instructions. that _ under the new social distancing instructions. that was - under the new social distancing instructions. that was the - under the new social distancing - instructions. that was the problem, wasn't _ instructions. that was the problem, wasn't it. _ instructions. that was the problem, wasn't it. in— instructions. that was the problem, wasn't it, in march— instructions. that was the problem, wasn't it, in march 2020? _ instructions. that was the problem, wasn't it, in march 2020? i- instructions. that was the problem, wasn't it, in march 2020?— wasn't it, in march 2020? i think the difficulties _ wasn't it, in march 2020? i think the difficulties we _ wasn't it, in march 2020? i think the difficulties we had _ wasn't it, in march 2020? i think the difficulties we had in - the difficulties we had in delivering education remotely and the other things you have mentioned certainly compounded the problem but the basic problem, the prior problem was that kids were deprived of the vital education that they needed at a critical time in their development. they were deprived of other society of other kids, they were unable to socialise, it was a terrible, terrible time and the evidence is, as i am sure you know, that this was felt most keenly by those on lower incomes and they basically received about 30% less education as a result than kids from a wealthy background. 50 education as a result than kids from a wealthy background.— education as a result than kids from a wealthy background. so we agree on im act, a wealthy background. so we agree on imact, can a wealthy background. so we agree on impact. can we — a wealthy background. so we agree on impact, can we agree _ a wealthy background. so we agree on impact, can we agree there _ a wealthy background. so we agree on impact, can we agree there was - a wealthy background. so we agree on impact, can we agree there was no - impact, can we agree there was no proper— impact, can we agree there was no proper plan? — impact, can we agree there was no proper plan? i— impact, can we agree there was no proper plan?— proper plan? i think it would be fair to say _ proper plan? i think it would be fair to say from _ proper plan? i think it would be fair to say from everything - proper plan? i think it would be fair to say from everything the l fair to say from everything the inquiry has heard so far, that this was a once in a century event and we were not prepared suddenly to be forced to close schools furthering the time that we did. that forced to close schools furthering the time that we did.— the time that we did. that is fair. thank you- _ the time that we did. that is fair. thank you- in _ the time that we did. that is fair. thank you. in your _ the time that we did. that is fair. thank you. in your witness - thank you. in your witness statement, _ thank you. in your witness statement, the _ thank you. in your witness statement, the reference. thank you. in your witnessl statement, the reference is thank you. in your witness - statement, the reference is page 107, you — statement, the reference is page 107, you say— statement, the reference is page 107. you say that _ statement, the reference is page 107, you say that the _ statement, the reference is page 107, you say that the reopening i statement, the reference is pagel 107, you say that the reopening of schools _ 107, you say that the reopening of schools was — 107, you say that the reopening of schools was one _ 107, you say that the reopening of schools was one of _ 107, you say that the reopening of schools was one of your— 107, you say that the reopening of schools was one of your key- schools was one of your key priorities _ schools was one of your key priorities in— schools was one of your key priorities in the _ schools was one of your key priorities in the summer- schools was one of your key priorities in the summer ofl schools was one of your key- priorities in the summer of 2020 when _ priorities in the summer of 2020 when the — priorities in the summer of 2020 when the first _ priorities in the summer of 2020 when the first lockdown - priorities in the summer of 2020 when the first lockdown was - priorities in the summer of 2020 . when the first lockdown was easing. putting _ when the first lockdown was easing. putting it _ when the first lockdown was easing. putting it ahead, _ when the first lockdown was easing. putting it ahead, in _ when the first lockdown was easing. putting it ahead, in your— when the first lockdown was easing. putting it ahead, in your words, - when the first lockdown was easing. putting it ahead, in yourwords, of. putting it ahead, in yourwords, of the need _ putting it ahead, in yourwords, of the need to— putting it ahead, in yourwords, of the need to left _ putting it ahead, in yourwords, of the need to left social _ putting it ahead, in yourwords, of the need to left social and - putting it ahead, in yourwords, of. the need to left social and economic measures _ the need to left social and economic measures why— the need to left social and economic measures. why then, _ the need to left social and economic measures. why then, is _ the need to left social and economic measures. why then, is this - the need to left social and economic measures. why then, is this is - the need to left social and economic measures. why then, is this is the l measures. why then, is this is the question. — measures. why then, is this is the question. why— measures. why then, is this is the question, why then _ measures. why then, is this is the question, why then were - measures. why then, is this is the. question, why then were hospitality and cultural— question, why then were hospitality and cultural venues, _ question, why then were hospitality and cultural venues, including - question, why then were hospitalityl and culturalvenues, including pubs, bars, _ and culturalvenues, including pubs, bars, cafe _ and culturalvenues, including pubs, bars, cafe is, — and culturalvenues, including pubs, bars, cafe is, restaurants... - bars, cafe is, restaurants... apoiogies— bars, cafe is, restaurants... apologies for _ bars, cafe is, restaurants... apologies for the _ bars, cafe is, restaurants... apologies for the sound - bars, cafe is, restaurants... i apologies for the sound there, bars, cafe is, restaurants... - apologies for the sound there, that is happening from within the covid—19 inquiry sound system itself. it is not something that is happening at this end but we will try to rectify that soon. in the meantime, we hope to listen as well as we can without sound interference.— as we can without sound interference. ., ,., ., , ., interference. the reason was that we thou . ht we interference. the reason was that we thought we could _ interference. the reason was that we thought we could go _ interference. the reason was that we thought we could go until— interference. the reason was that we thought we could go until the - thought we could go until the resumption of the normal school term but secondly, schools are a big potential reservoirs of risk. younger people can easily transmit the virus to older and more vulnerable people.- the virus to older and more vulnerable people. the virus to older and more vulnerable --eole. ., ,, ,. , vulnerable people. you think schools are eater vulnerable people. you think schools are eager reservoirs _ vulnerable people. you think schools are eager reservoirs of— vulnerable people. you think schools are eager reservoirs of risk— vulnerable people. you think schools are eager reservoirs of risk than - are eager reservoirs of risk than pubs _ are eager reservoirs of risk than pubs and — are eager reservoirs of risk than pubs and beauty— are eager reservoirs of risk than pubs and beauty salons - are eager reservoirs of risk than pubs and beauty salons and - pubs and beauty salons and nonessential— pubs and beauty salons and nonessential retail- pubs and beauty salons and nonessential retail for- pubs and beauty salons and nonessential retail for that i pubs and beauty salons and - nonessential retail for that matter? ithink— nonessential retail for that matter? i think we _ nonessential retail for that matter? i think we were _ nonessential retail for that matter? i think we were thinking _ nonessential retail for that matter? i think we were thinking about- nonessential retail for that matter? i think we were thinking about howl i think we were thinking about how to do things, how to sequence things and i would have to go back and look at some of the discussions but i think that we thought it a sensible, given where we were in the school calendar, to resume with the normal return of school. but calendar, to resume with the normal return of school.— return of school. but the reality is that contrary _ return of school. but the reality is that contrary to _ return of school. but the reality is that contrary to what _ return of school. but the reality is that contrary to what you - return of school. but the reality is that contrary to what you had - that contrary to what you had indicated _ that contrary to what you had indicated earlier, _ that contrary to what you had indicated earlier, schools - that contrary to what you had i indicated earlier, schools were that contrary to what you had - indicated earlier, schools were not the last— indicated earlier, schools were not the last to — indicated earlier, schools were not the last to close _ indicated earlier, schools were not the last to close in _ indicated earlier, schools were not the last to close in the _ indicated earlier, schools were not the last to close in the first - indicated earlier, schools were not the last to close in the first to - the last to close in the first to reopen, — the last to close in the first to reopen. where _ the last to close in the first to reopen, where they? - the last to close in the first to reopen, where they? priorityl the last to close in the first to - reopen, where they? priority was given— reopen, where they? priority was given in— reopen, where they? priority was given in your— reopen, where they? priority was given in your budget _ reopen, where they? priority was given in your budget of— reopen, where they? priority was given in your budget of risk- reopen, where they? priority was given in your budget of risk to, l given in your budget of risk to, amongst — given in your budget of risk to, amongst other— given in your budget of risk to, amongst other things, - given in your budget of risk to, amongst other things, pubs i given in your budget of risk to, i amongst other things, pubs and hairdressers? _ amongst other things, pubs and hairdressers? that— amongst other things, pubs and hairdressers? that is— amongst other things, pubs and hairdressers? that is the - amongst other things, pubs and i hairdressers? that is the reality, isn't _ hairdressers? that is the reality, isn't it? — hairdressers? that is the reality, isn't it? tis— hairdressers? that is the reality, isn't it? �* , hairdressers? that is the reality, isn't it? r , ., isn't it? as i say, we faced an unlocking _ isn't it? as i say, we faced an unlocking which _ isn't it? as i say, we faced an unlocking which went - isn't it? as i say, we faced an unlocking which went on... i isn't it? as i say, we faced an. unlocking which went on... we isn't it? as i say, we faced an - unlocking which went on... we are “ust iioin unlocking which went on... we are just going to _ unlocking which went on... we are just going to leave _ unlocking which went on... we are just going to leave that _ unlocking which went on... we are just going to leave that inquiry - unlocking which went on... we are just going to leave that inquiry for| just going to leave that inquiry for a moment. apologies for the sound issues there, that is something that issues there, that is something that is happening from the covid—19 inquiry�*s end but we are trying to get an alternative sound source for you so you can listen to it without that interference. that went on untiljuly, the school holidays normally began then. there were reasons for thinking it might be sensible to resume school when a school normally resumes.— be sensible to resume school when a school normally resumes. rather than for example — school normally resumes. rather than for example as — school normally resumes. rather than for example as an _ school normally resumes. rather than for example as an alternative, - school normally resumes. rather than for example as an alternative, keep i for example as an alternative, keep schools _ for example as an alternative, keep schools open — for example as an alternative, keep schools open into _ for example as an alternative, keep schools open into august _ for example as an alternative, keep schools open into august because i schools open into august because schools _ schools open into august because schools had — schools open into august because schools had been— schools open into august because schools had been closed - schools open into august because schools had been closed for- schools open into august because schools had been closed for so . schools open into august because i schools had been closed for so long beforehand? — schools had been closed for so long beforehand? [— schools had been closed for so long beforehand?— beforehand? i think we did look at that, i am beforehand? i think we did look at that. i am not— beforehand? i think we did look at that, i am not sure _ beforehand? i think we did look at that, i am not sure it _ beforehand? i think we did look at that, i am not sure it was - that, i am not sure it was practically very easy to do. moving then from school— practically very easy to do. moving then from school closures - practically very easy to do. moving then from school closures to - practically very easy to do. moving then from school closures to the i then from school closures to the social _ then from school closures to the social distancing _ then from school closures to the social distancing restrictions, . then from school closures to the i social distancing restrictions, why did your— social distancing restrictions, why did your government— social distancing restrictions, why did your government largely - social distancing restrictions, why. did your government largely ignore calls from — did your government largely ignore calls from the _ did your government largely ignore calls from the children's _ calls from the children's commissioner— calls from the children's commissioner for- calls from the children's i commissioner for england calls from the children's - commissioner for england and numerous _ commissioner for england and numerous children's— commissioner for england and numerous children's rights - numerous children's rights organisations— numerous children's rights organisations to _ numerous children's rights organisations to exempt i numerous children's rights - organisations to exempt children in england _ organisations to exempt children in england from — organisations to exempt children in england from the _ organisations to exempt children in england from the social _ organisations to exempt children in england from the social distancingl england from the social distancing restrictions— england from the social distancing restrictions that _ england from the social distancing restrictions that became _ england from the social distancing restrictions that became law - england from the social distancing restrictions that became law on i england from the social distancingl restrictions that became law on the 1stof— restrictions that became law on the ist ofjune — restrictions that became law on the ist ofjune on— restrictions that became law on the 1st ofjune on the _ restrictions that became law on the 1st ofjune on the 14th _ restrictions that became law on the 1st ofjune on the 14th of— 1st ofjune on the 14th of september? _ 1st ofjune on the 14th of september?— 1st ofjune on the 14th of se tember? ~ , ., 1st ofjune on the 14th of setember? ~ , ., , september? why did we ignore calls to exem -t september? why did we ignore calls to exempt them _ september? why did we ignore calls to exempt them from _ september? why did we ignore calls to exempt them from social- to exempt them from social distancing? yes. iwould have to exempt them from social distancing? yes. i would have to look back at the discussions and forgive me, but i think it would be because we wanted to do my the risk of transmission. that because we wanted to do my the risk of transmission.— because we wanted to do my the risk of transmission. that me “ust remind ou of the of transmission. that me “ust remind you of the position. _ of transmission. that me “ust remind you of the position. the _ of transmission. that me just remind you of the position. the 1st _ of transmission. that me just remind you of the position. the 1st of- you of the position. the 1st of june — you of the position. the 1st of june, outdoor— you of the position. the 1st of june, outdoor gatherings- you of the position. the 1st of june, outdoor gatherings of. you of the position. the 1st ofl june, outdoor gatherings of up you of the position. the 1st of. june, outdoor gatherings of up to six people — june, outdoor gatherings of up to six people for— june, outdoor gatherings of up to six people for more _ june, outdoor gatherings of up to six people for more than - june, outdoor gatherings of up to six people for more than one - six people for more than one household _ six people for more than one household became _ six people for more than one household became law. - six people for more than one i household became law. fourth six people for more than one - household became law. fourthjuly, so-caiied _ household became law. fourthjuly, so—called independence _ household became law. fourthjuly, so—called independence day, - household became law. fourthjuly, so—called independence day, all- so—called independence day, all outdoor— so—called independence day, all outdoor restrictions _ so—called independence day, all outdoor restrictions are - so—called independence day, all outdoor restrictions are lifted i outdoor restrictions are lifted except — outdoor restrictions are lifted except in _ outdoor restrictions are lifted except in leicester. - outdoor restrictions are lifted except in leicester. the - outdoor restrictions are lifted except in leicester. the 14th| outdoor restrictions are lifted i except in leicester. the 14th of september, _ except in leicester. the 14th of september, the _ except in leicester. the 14th of september, the numbers- except in leicester. the 14th ofl september, the numbers began except in leicester. the 14th of. september, the numbers began to except in leicester. the 14th of - september, the numbers began to rise a-ain september, the numbers began to rise again and _ september, the numbers began to rise again and the _ september, the numbers began to rise again and the so—called _ september, the numbers began to rise again and the so—called rule _ september, the numbers began to rise again and the so—called rule of- september, the numbers began to rise again and the so—called rule of six - again and the so—called rule of six was reintroduced _ again and the so—called rule of six was reintroduced at _ again and the so—called rule of six was reintroduced at that _ again and the so—called rule of six was reintroduced at that stage. i again and the so—called rule of sixj was reintroduced at that stage. so the position— was reintroduced at that stage. so the position was _ was reintroduced at that stage. so the position was that _ was reintroduced at that stage. so the position was that in _ was reintroduced at that stage. so the position was that in england, i the position was that in england, chiidren— the position was that in england, children were _ the position was that in england, children were not _ the position was that in england, children were not exempted - the position was that in england, children were not exempted butl the position was that in england, i children were not exempted but in scotland _ children were not exempted but in scotland and — children were not exempted but in scotland and wales, _ children were not exempted but in scotland and wales, younger- children were not exempted but in. scotland and wales, younger children were exempted — scotland and wales, younger children were exempted from _ scotland and wales, younger children were exempted from the _ scotland and wales, younger children were exempted from the social- were exempted from the social distancing _ were exempted from the social distancing restrictions, - were exempted from the social distancing restrictions, as- were exempted from the social distancing restrictions, as i- were exempted from the social distancing restrictions, as i am| distancing restrictions, as i am sure _ distancing restrictions, as i am sure you — distancing restrictions, as i am sure you are _ distancing restrictions, as i am sure you are aware _ distancing restrictions, as i am sure you are aware of, - distancing restrictions, as i am sure you are aware of, yes - distancing restrictions, as i am - sure you are aware of, yes because mark— sure you are aware of, yes because mark that _ sure you are aware of, yes because mark that excess _ sure you are aware of, yes because mark that excess back. _ sure you are aware of, yes because mark that excess back. that- sure you are aware of, yes because mark that excess back.— sure you are aware of, yes because mark that excess back. that takes us back to the conversations _ mark that excess back. that takes us back to the conversations we - mark that excess back. that takes us back to the conversations we just - back to the conversations we just had and in an ideal world, we could proceed with one set of messages. i hated all the restrictions that we had to place on schools and i wanted to get them open. but we faced a really, really of a pandemic and the judgment was, and this is one of the areas where the scientific emphasis changed, because it was not quite as clear as back in march. but the judgment was, i remember, later on in 2020, that schools really did present a considerable addition to the budget of risk. i present a considerable addition to the budget of risk.— present a considerable addition to the budget of risk. i moved on from schools to the _ the budget of risk. i moved on from schools to the social— the budget of risk. i moved on from schools to the social distancing - schools to the social distancing restrictions _ schools to the social distancing restrictions. [— schools to the social distancing restrictions.— schools to the social distancing restrictions. i thought you were talkin: restrictions. i thought you were talking about _ restrictions. i thought you were talking about within _ restrictions. i thought you were talking about within schools. i talking about within schools. forgive me. just to remind you, the position— forgive me. just to remind you, the position was — forgive me. just to remind you, the position was that _ forgive me. just to remind you, the position was that in _ forgive me. just to remind you, the position was that in england, - position was that in england, chiidren— position was that in england, children under— position was that in england, children under the _ position was that in england, children under the age - position was that in england, children under the age of. position was that in england, children under the age of 12, | children under the age of 12, chiidren— children under the age of 12, children who _ children under the age of 12, children who cannot - children under the age of 12, children who cannot go - children under the age of 12, children who cannot go out i children under the age of 12, - children who cannot go out from their— children who cannot go out from their homes— children who cannot go out from their homes independently, - children who cannot go out from| their homes independently, were children who cannot go out from - their homes independently, were not exempt— their homes independently, were not exempt from — their homes independently, were not exempt from the _ their homes independently, were not exempt from the restrictions, - their homes independently, were not exempt from the restrictions, they. exempt from the restrictions, they were _ exempt from the restrictions, they were not— exempt from the restrictions, they were not given, _ exempt from the restrictions, they were not given, to— exempt from the restrictions, they were not given, to use _ exempt from the restrictions, they were not given, to use the - were not given, to use the government— were not given, to use the government language, - were not given, to use the i government language, that were not given, to use the - government language, that freedom and independence. _ government language, that freedom and independence. the _ government language, that freedom and independence. the same - government language, that freedom and independence. the same is- and independence. the same is chiidren— and independence. the same is children in— and independence. the same is children in scotland _ and independence. the same is children in scotland and - and independence. the same is children in scotland and wales. | and independence. the same is- children in scotland and wales. why did england — children in scotland and wales. why did england pursue _ children in scotland and wales. why did england pursue a _ children in scotland and wales. why did england pursue a more - children in scotland and wales. whyl did england pursue a more draconian approach _ did england pursue a more draconian approach than — did england pursue a more draconian approach than scotland _ did england pursue a more draconian approach than scotland and - did england pursue a more draconian approach than scotland and wales . did england pursue a more draconian approach than scotland and wales asj approach than scotland and wales as far as _ approach than scotland and wales as far as younger— approach than scotland and wales as far as younger children— approach than scotland and wales as far as younger children were - far as younger children were concerned? _ far as younger children were concerned? l— far as younger children were concerned?— far as younger children were concerned? ., , ., ., ., concerned? i would refer you to what i said “ust concerned? i would refer you to what i said just a — concerned? i would refer you to what i said just a moment _ concerned? i would refer you to what i said just a moment ago, _ concerned? i would refer you to what i said just a moment ago, i _ concerned? i would refer you to what i said just a moment ago, i think - i said just a moment ago, i think that we were trying to reduce transmission, trying to reduce risk but clearly, there was i diverged between the various parts of the uk. i am not certain in future whether we would want to do it that way. just to be fair to you on this, so you know. — just to be fair to you on this, so you know. the _ just to be fair to you on this, so you know, the inquiry— just to be fair to you on this, so you know, the inquiry has - just to be fair to you on this, so you know, the inquiry has not i just to be fair to you on this, so - you know, the inquiry has not heard any scientific— you know, the inquiry has not heard any scientific or— you know, the inquiry has not heard any scientific or medical— you know, the inquiry has not heard any scientific or medical evidence i any scientific or medical evidence from _ any scientific or medical evidence from either— any scientific or medical evidence from either the _ any scientific or medical evidence from either the cmo _ any scientific or medical evidence from either the cmo for- any scientific or medical evidence from either the cmo for the - any scientific or medical evidence from either the cmo for the gcsi any scientific or medical evidence | from either the cmo for the gcs a any scientific or medical evidence . from either the cmo for the gcs a to the effect _ from either the cmo for the gcs a to the effect that— from either the cmo for the gcs a to the effect that what _ from either the cmo for the gcs a to the effect that what scotland - from either the cmo for the gcs a to the effect that what scotland and - the effect that what scotland and wales _ the effect that what scotland and wales was — the effect that what scotland and wales was doing _ the effect that what scotland and wales was doing was _ the effect that what scotland and wales was doing was somehow i wales was doing was somehow dangerous— wales was doing was somehow dangerous and _ wales was doing was somehow dangerous and the _ wales was doing was somehow dangerous and the image - wales was doing was somehow - dangerous and the image approach was better~ _ dangerous and the image approach was better. just _ dangerous and the image approach was better. just so — dangerous and the image approach was better. just so you _ dangerous and the image approach was better. just so you understand - dangerous and the image approach was better. just so you understand the - better. just so you understand the position _ better. just so you understand the position now. _ better. just so you understand the position. now, opposition- better. just so you understand the position. now, opposition to- better. just so you understand the position. now, opposition to the i position. now, opposition to the decision— position. now, opposition to the decision not— position. now, opposition to the decision not to _ position. now, opposition to the decision not to exempt - position. now, opposition to the decision not to exempt youngerl decision not to exempt younger chiidren— decision not to exempt younger children from _ decision not to exempt younger children from the _ decision not to exempt younger children from the social - decision not to exempt younger. children from the social distancing restrictions— children from the social distancing restrictions was— children from the social distancing restrictions was not _ children from the social distancing restrictions was not confined - children from the social distancing restrictions was not confined to i children from the social distancingl restrictions was not confined to the chiidren's_ restrictions was not confined to the children's commissioner— restrictions was not confined to the children's commissioner and - restrictions was not confined to the children's commissioner and a - children's commissioner and a chiidren's_ children's commissioner and a children's rights— children's commissioner and a| children's rights organisations. members— children's rights organisations. members of— children's rights organisations. members of your— children's rights organisations. members of your own - children's rights organisations. - members of your own government and political— members of your own government and political party — members of your own government and political party were _ members of your own government and political party were expressing - political party were expressing concerns — political party were expressing concerns about _ political party were expressing concerns about this _ political party were expressing concerns about this and - political party were expressing concerns about this and i- political party were expressing l concerns about this and i would political party were expressing - concerns about this and i would like to show— concerns about this and i would like to show you — concerns about this and i would like to show you one _ concerns about this and i would like to show you one particular- concerns about this and i would like. to show you one particular whatsapp exchange. _ to show you one particular whatsapp exchange. if— to show you one particular whatsapp exchange. if i— to show you one particular whatsapp exchange. if i may _ to show you one particular whatsapp exchange, if i may. the _ to show you one particular whatsapp exchange, if i may. the reference . to show you one particular whatsapp exchange, if i may. the reference is| exchange, if i may. the reference is 176785 _ exchange, if i may. the reference is 176785 page — exchange, if i may. the reference is 176785 page 24 _ exchange, if i may. the reference is 176785. page 24. if— exchange, if i may. the reference is 176785. page 24. if you _ exchange, if i may. the reference is 176785. page 24. if you could - 176785. page 24. if you could indicate — 176785. page 24. if you could indicate when _ 176785. page 24. if you could indicate when you _ 176785. page 24. if you could indicate when you have - 176785. page 24. if you could indicate when you have that. 176785. page 24. if you could i indicate when you have that on 176785. page 24. if you could - indicate when you have that on your screen, _ indicate when you have that on your screen, it _ indicate when you have that on your screen, it would _ indicate when you have that on your screen, it would be _ indicate when you have that on your screen, it would be appreciative. . indicate when you have that on your screen, it would be appreciative. ifl screen, it would be appreciative. if we could _ screen, it would be appreciative. if we could turn — screen, it would be appreciative. if we could turn to _ screen, it would be appreciative. if we could turn to the _ screen, it would be appreciative. if we could turn to the 11th _ screen, it would be appreciative. if we could turn to the 11th of- screen, it would be appreciative. if| we could turn to the 11th of october please _ we could turn to the 11th of october please the — we could turn to the 11th of october please. the entry— we could turn to the 11th of october please, the entry at _ we could turn to the 11th of october please, the entry at 154659. - we could turn to the 11th of october please, the entry at 154659. this i we could turn to the 11th of october please, the entry at 154659. this isj please, the entry at 154659. this is a whatsapp — please, the entry at 154659. this is a whatsapp exchange _ please, the entry at 154659. this is a whatsapp exchange between - please, the entry at 154659. this is| a whatsapp exchange between matt hancock _ a whatsapp exchange between matt hancock and — a whatsapp exchange between matt hancock and helen _ a whatsapp exchange between matt hancock and helen whately - a whatsapp exchange between matt hancock and helen whately who - a whatsapp exchange between matt| hancock and helen whately who was minister— hancock and helen whately who was minister of— hancock and helen whately who was minister of state _ hancock and helen whately who was minister of state at _ hancock and helen whately who was minister of state at the _ hancock and helen whately who was minister of state at the time. - hancock and helen whately who was minister of state at the time. helenl minister of state at the time. helen says this, _ minister of state at the time. helen says this, which _ minister of state at the time. helen says this, which we _ minister of state at the time. helen says this, which we could _ minister of state at the time. helen says this, which we could loosen . minister of state at the time. helen says this, which we could loosen onj says this, which we could loosen on children_ says this, which we could loosen on children under— says this, which we could loosen on children under 12 _ says this, which we could loosen on children under 12 on _ says this, which we could loosen on children under 12 on rule _ says this, which we could loosen on children under 12 on rule of- says this, which we could loosen on children under 12 on rule of six - children under 12 on rule of six tier— children under 12 on rule of six tier 1 — children under 12 on rule of six tier 1 then— children under 12 on rule of six tier 1. then sometime - children under 12 on rule of six tier 1. then sometime later. children under 12 on rule of sixi tier 1. then sometime later she says. _ tier 1. then sometime later she says. it — tier 1. then sometime later she says. it would _ tier 1. then sometime later she says, it would make _ tier 1. then sometime later she says, it would make such - tier 1. then sometime later she says, it would make such a - says, it would make such a difference _ says, it would make such a difference for _ says, it would make such a difference for families - says, it would make such a difference for families andi says, it would make such a - difference for families and there isn't a _ difference for families and there isn't a robust _ difference for families and there isn't a robust rationale - difference for families and there isn't a robust rationale for- difference for families and there isn't a robust rationale for it. . difference for families and there i isn't a robust rationale for it. now isn't a robust rationale for it. now is a reaily— isn't a robust rationale for it. now is a really good _ isn't a robust rationale for it. now is a really good chance _ isn't a robust rationale for it. now is a really good chance to - isn't a robust rationale for it. now is a really good chance to show i isn't a robust rationale for it. nowl is a really good chance to show we have _ is a really good chance to show we have listened _ is a really good chance to show we have listened lots _ is a really good chance to show we have listened lots of— is a really good chance to show we have listened lots of mps - is a really good chance to show we have listened lots of mps were - have listened lots of mps were pushing — have listened lots of mps were pushing on— have listened lots of mps were pushing on this _ have listened lots of mps were pushing on this during - have listened lots of mps were pushing on this during last - have listened lots of mps were . pushing on this during last week's debates — pushing on this during last week's debates matt— pushing on this during last week's debates. matt hancock— pushing on this during last week's debates. matt hancock replies, i pushing on this during last week's i debates. matt hancock replies, they don't want _ debates. matt hancock replies, they don't want to — debates. matt hancock replies, they don't want to go _ debates. matt hancock replies, they don't want to go there _ debates. matt hancock replies, they don't want to go there on _ debates. matt hancock replies, they don't want to go there on this. - debates. matt hancock replies, they don't want to go there on this. she i don't want to go there on this. she asks, _ don't want to go there on this. she asks, are _ don't want to go there on this. she asks, are we — don't want to go there on this. she asks, are we they? _ don't want to go there on this. she asks, are we they? then— don't want to go there on this. she asks, are we they? then this, - don't want to go there on this. she| asks, are we they? then this, from matt— asks, are we they? then this, from matt hancock, _ asks, are we they? then this, from matt hancock, as _ asks, are we they? then this, from matt hancock, as in _ asks, are we they? then this, from matt hancock, as in number- asks, are we they? then this, from matt hancock, as in number ten, i asks, are we they? then this, from . matt hancock, as in number ten, also on curfew, _ matt hancock, as in number ten, also on curfew, they— matt hancock, as in number ten, also on curfew, they don't _ matt hancock, as in number ten, also on curfew, they don't want _ matt hancock, as in number ten, also on curfew, they don't want to - matt hancock, as in number ten, also on curfew, they don't want to shift - on curfew, they don't want to shift an inch _ on curfew, they don't want to shift an inch in — on curfew, they don't want to shift an inch. in respect _ on curfew, they don't want to shift an inch. in respect of— on curfew, they don't want to shift an inch. in respect of that, - on curfew, they don't want to shift an inch. in respect of that, the - an inch. in respect of that, the first— an inch. in respect of that, the first question, _ an inch. in respect of that, the first question, where - an inch. in respect of that, the first question, where you - an inch. in respect of that, the first question, where you are i an inch. in respect of that, the - first question, where you are aware of this— first question, where you are aware of this time~~ _ first question, where you are aware of this time. . .— of this time. .. this is october? mid-october, _ of this time. .. this is october? mid-october, this _ of this time. .. this is october? mid-october, this is _ of this time. .. this is october? mid-october, this is a - of this time. .. this is october? mid-october, this is a month i of this time. .. this is october? . mid-october, this is a month after mid—october, this is a month after scotland _ mid—october, this is a month after scotland and — mid—october, this is a month after scotland and wales _ mid—october, this is a month after scotland and wales have _ mid—october, this is a month afterl scotland and wales have exempted children _ scotland and wales have exempted children from — scotland and wales have exempted children from the _ scotland and wales have exempted children from the run _ scotland and wales have exempted children from the run of— scotland and wales have exempted children from the run of six. - scotland and wales have exempted children from the run of six. where j children from the run of six. where you aware — children from the run of six. where you aware at— children from the run of six. where you aware at that _ children from the run of six. where you aware at that time _ children from the run of six. where you aware at that time that - children from the run of six. where you aware at that time that helen i you aware at that time that helen whately— you aware at that time that helen whateiy and — you aware at that time that helen whately and lots _ you aware at that time that helen whately and lots of _ you aware at that time that helen whately and lots of mps, - you aware at that time that helen whately and lots of mps, to - you aware at that time that helen whately and lots of mps, to use i you aware at that time that helen i whately and lots of mps, to use her words. _ whately and lots of mps, to use her words. were — whately and lots of mps, to use her words, were calling _ whately and lots of mps, to use her words, were calling for— whately and lots of mps, to use her words, were calling for children- whately and lots of mps, to use her words, were calling for children to i words, were calling for children to be exempt— words, were calling for children to be exempt from _ words, were calling for children to be exempt from the _ words, were calling for children to be exempt from the rule - words, were calling for children to be exempt from the rule of- words, were calling for children to be exempt from the rule of six? i words, were calling for children tol be exempt from the rule of six? or you aware — be exempt from the rule of six? or you aware of— be exempt from the rule of six? or you aware of that _ be exempt from the rule of six? or you aware of that at _ be exempt from the rule of six? or you aware of that at the _ be exempt from the rule of six? or you aware of that at the time? - ita it a great example of the kind of thinking, the kind of debate tae was going on, at, at a time when as everybody knows, and we have been discussing this extensively this morning, the r was going up and we were about to announce the tired system so the 11th of october, where we were days away from having to ask the country to go back in to parts of the country to go back into lockdown, and we are, the, so the last thing, to explain why it might have been a, a difficult for us to signal any kind of relex asian, —— relax aches to
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