and he saw it right from the beginning and he made important decisions on the likes of lockdown, and test and try scan on ppp, and care homes and then the vaccine roll—out. so there is plenty for him to be asked about here at the inquiry, but the criticism has been ongoing over the last few weeks. we have heard from civil servants and aides who say that he had new colour levels of confidence, he had a tendency to over promise and under deliver, and then those who said he downright lied. we have heard that on a number of occasions from civil servants and from dominic cummings, borisjohnson�*s closest servants and from dominic cummings, boris johnson's closest aide. servants and from dominic cummings, borisjohnson�*s closest aide. we boris johnson's closest aide. we have found out, according to documents in the inquiry, that there were calls for him to be sacked. he didn't get sacked, in the end he resigned because he broke his own social distancing rules by having an affair with his colleague, and that is what ended his government career. there has been some defence of matt hancock, though. earlier this week we heard from michael gove, his cabinet colleague, who said matt hancock approached decision—making with wisdom and foresight and he said he had a high opinion of matt hancock and he rose to the occasion. but i think he will go in all guns blazing and will be very defensive of his record. he has appeared in the inquiry earlier in the year and at that time gave a very solemn apology to families and victims, but he was punchy, and he defends his record. it has been very much criticised over the last few weeks. we are expecting this to last all day with matt hancock. what do you think the major issues that are going to come up this morning? weill. going to come up this morning? well, i don't know— going to come up this morning? well, i don't know what _ going to come up this morning? well, i don't know what the _ going to come up this morning? -ii i don't know what the timing of what to talk to him about it, but for example yesterday we heard from dame jenny harries, she was the deputy chief medical officer at the time of the pandemic, and she talked about an e—mail that was sent at the time in march 2020 in which an official had basically said that symptomatic patients would have to be sent to care homes to stop the nhs being clogged up. she said that was an invitation for hospitals to send infected people to care homes, but that was what was going to have to happen because of the situation and to stop the nhs becoming overwhelmed. don't forget matt hancock said in may of 2020 that the government would throw a protective ring around care homes, so a really contentious issue about exactly what was done and was enough done to look after care homes? the issue of care homes will probably be touched upon and it will be talked about in a later module at the inquiry, but no doubt it will come up today. we will hear more about the chaotic nature that we have been hearing so much about right at the centre of power, whether that was downing street, how these decisions were made as a whole, how the structures all work together, so we will certainly hear about that. but take your pick. he was right at the centre of all these important decisions made during the pandemic. it important decisions made during the andemic. , , ., pandemic. it will be interesting to hear his tone, _ pandemic. it will be interesting to hear his tone, you _ pandemic. it will be interesting to hear his tone, you talked - pandemic. it will be interesting to hear his tone, you talked about i pandemic. it will be interesting to l hear his tone, you talked about that earlier. do you think he will come in very offensive —— defensive, very apologetic? i in very offensive -- defensive, very apologetic?— apologetic? i think a bit of both because he _ apologetic? i think a bit of both because he is _ apologetic? i think a bit of both because he is very _ apologetic? i think a bit of both because he is very aware - apologetic? i think a bit of both because he is very aware of - apologetic? i think a bit of both | because he is very aware of how apologetic? i think a bit of both - because he is very aware of how he appears personally and he has got so much personal criticism over the last few weeks. i was talking to a protester and she said she felt there was an element of the government scapegoating matt hancock. he is not in government any more and he is not a conservative mp, so she thought, and it is a feeling that has been echoed by other politicians and matt hancock himself, orallies other politicians and matt hancock himself, or allies of his, that he is being seen as a scapegoat because he is an easy hit, if you like. there will be a definite attempt to defend his record. that was the toner last time he was here. he came toner last time he was here. he came to the inquiry a few months ago when he was talking about the uk's preparedness for a pandemic. again defensive, but more is at stake this time because it implicates him personally. so, yes, take this opportunity to set the record straight. opportunity to set the record straiuht. ~ . ., straight. we are living there for now as straight. we are living there for new as the _ straight. we are living there for new as the is — straight. we are living there for now as the is beginning. - straight. we are living there for now as the is beginning. mr- straight. we are living there for - now as the is beginning. mr hancock, ma i cive now as the is beginning. mr hancock, may i give you _ now as the is beginning. mr hancock, may i give you the — now as the is beginning. mr hancock, may i give you the same _ now as the is beginning. mr hancock, may i give you the same apology - now as the is beginning. mr hancock, may i give you the same apology i - may i give you the same apology i have _ may i give you the same apology i have given — may i give you the same apology i have given to other witnesses. but thank_ have given to other witnesses. but thank you — have given to other witnesses. but thank you for coming. not have given to other witnesses. but thank you for coming.— thank you for coming. not at all. could you _ thank you for coming. not at all. could you commit _ thank you for coming. not at all. could you commit your— thank you for coming. not at all. could you commit your evidence | thank you for coming. not at all. i could you commit your evidence by giving us your full could you commit your evidence by giving us yourfull name? yes. could you commit your evidence by giving us your full name?— could you commit your evidence by giving us your full name? yes, i am matthew giving us your full name? yes, i am matthewjohn _ giving us your full name? yes, i am matthew john david _ giving us your full name? yes, i am matthewjohn david hancock. - giving us your full name? yes, i am matthew john david hancock. you l giving us your full name? yes, i am l matthew john david hancock. you are the mp for west _ matthew john david hancock. you are the mp for west suffolk _ matthew john david hancock. you are the mp for west suffolk and - matthew john david hancock. you are the mp for west suffolk and we - matthew john david hancock. you are the mp for west suffolk and we have | the mp for west suffolk and we have received evidence in module one from you that you are the paymaster general and ministerfor the you that you are the paymaster general and minister for the cabinet office from may 2015 to 2016 and then you served as secretary of state for health and social care from the 9th ofjuly 2018, when you took over from jeremy hunt mp, and you served in that post until the 26th ofjune 2021 when you resigned. that is right. 26th ofjune 2021 when you resigned. that is right-— that is right. thank you for the rovision that is right. thank you for the provision of — that is right. thank you for the provision of a _ that is right. thank you for the provision of a further _ that is right. thank you for the i provision of a further statement. you obviously provided a great deal of information in module one when you gave evidence and you were assisted by providing a lengthy statement, 176 pages, which you can see on the screen, and also a supplementary statement in which he responded to a number of additional areas in the inquiry. ijust want to put into play some of the building blocks necessary for the questions that will follow. the inquiry has, i should make plain, received a copy of your book, pandemic diaries, which obviously consist of a significant contribution to the debate about the response to coronavirus. can i please ask you to make plain that notwithstanding that it is entitled pandemic diaries, it is, to use your word, and account piece together from formal papers, notes, voice apps and interviews? it is written as contemporaneous rather than with hindsight, but it was written after the pandemic using contemporaneous materials. 50 contemporaneous materials. so stylistically it is not a diary, it is pieced together and is called a diary? is pieced together and is called a dia ? ., . , , diary? correct, it is my recollections. - diary? correct, it is my recollections. in - diary? correct, it is my recollections. in the i diary? correct, it is my- recollections. in the diaries so called and _ recollections. in the diaries so called and in _ recollections. in the diaries so called and in your— recollections. in the diaries so called and in your statement l recollections. in the diaries so i called and in your statement you make plain that the remit of the department of health and social care was a vast one. it had of course all its usual business, it was the lead government department in response to this national public health crisis and the obligations upon it were, to use your words, fast and fast paced. yes. in use your words, fast and fast paced. yes. ., ., , ., use your words, fast and fast paced. yes. ., ., i. ., .. , yes. in module one you accepted in the course — yes. in module one you accepted in the course of _ yes. in module one you accepted in the course of your _ yes. in module one you accepted in the course of your evidence - yes. in module one you accepted in the course of your evidence under l the course of your evidence under oath that there had been a serious and significant inadequacy of preparation within the dhs e for a pandemic health emergency. maybe inquiry take from that acceptance that on the cusp of the pandemic in january 2020 the absence of preparation had serious, significant consequences in terms of its ability to be able to respond? this consequences in terms of its ability to be able to respond? as secretary of state for — to be able to respond? as secretary of state for health _ to be able to respond? as secretary of state for health and _ to be able to respond? as secretary of state for health and social- to be able to respond? as secretary of state for health and social care i of state for health and social care i was responsible notjust for the department, but ministerial it responsible for the wider health family as well, the agencies, the biggest being the nhs itself, and public health england and others. and it is absolutely true, as i set out in my evidence in module one, that the plans that we had were not adequate. and as we discussed in module one, i think that was on two basis. the first is in practical terms, for instance the uk didn't have a significant testing capability, and in terms of the wrong doctrine, which was that all the planning based on the 2011 pandemic flu plan on which was based on the assumption that we would be dealing with the consequences of a pandemic rather than try to suppress a pandemic. pandemic rather than try to suppress a pandemic— a pandemic. does it follow from the absence of preparation _ a pandemic. does it follow from the absence of preparation and - a pandemic. does it follow from the absence of preparation and perhapsj absence of preparation and perhaps the way in which in terms of planning the department, as well as the rest of government, it may be said to have been pointing in the wrong direction? that when the dhse and yourself were required to address the crisis and the breaking of the crisis in january and february, it became apparent that in terms of the structure, the personnel, the resourcing, the money, as well as the absence of plans to deal with the coronavirus, that you were in very real difficulties?— that you were in very real difficulties? ~ ., , ., difficulties? well, a couple of oints. i difficulties? well, a couple of points. i take _ difficulties? well, a couple of points. i take issue _ difficulties? well, a couple of points. i take issue with - difficulties? well, a couple of. points. i take issue with absence difficulties? well, a couple of- points. i take issue with absence of a plan. there was not an absence of a plan. there was not an absence of a plan, there were plans. i had critiqued the plans, i had said that they were not adequate, but there were plans in place. there was the 2011 pandemic plan, there had been a sickness exercise underjeremy sickness exercise under jeremy hunt's sickness exercise underjeremy hunt's position as secretary of state. so there were plans. there were areas in which the early response was very strong. pag got a diagnostic test together within a matter of days. the early surveillance essentially led by professor van tan was very good and the uk's role internationally was strong in the first few weeks. so there were plans. but the plans were inadequate in ways that we discussed inadequate in ways that we discussed in module one. with respect directly to the impact of that on the department, of course when a pandemic strikes, even if you have the very best plans, those responsible for responding would have to strengthen the operation, would have to tool up. and in the early days we expanded the department very significantly and ultimately we brought in army personnel, for instance, a lot more clinical personnel, and we took people off non—pandemic related work and put them onto pandemic —related work. all of these things were in response to the pandemic. they would have been needed even if we had the perfect plan, even if we learnt all the lessons. next time there is a pandemic, and there will be another one, of course the department of health will have to shift to respond to those challenges. you health will have to shift to respond to those challenges.— to those challenges. you say there were plans — to those challenges. you say there were plans and _ to those challenges. you say there were plans and you _ to those challenges. you say there were plans and you are _ to those challenges. you say there were plans and you are astute - to those challenges. you say there were plans and you are astute to l were plans and you are astute to make the point that there was a plan, the 2011 pandemic flu strategy, but your statement itself says, and i quote, there was no book or report to pull off the shelf to tell us how to handle a pandemic. yes. {iii tell us how to handle a pandemic. yes. .., , tell us how to handle a pandemic. yes. _, , ., , tell us how to handle a pandemic. yes. , yes. of course, as with responding to any crisis _ yes. of course, as with responding to any crisis or _ yes. of course, as with responding to any crisis or emergency - yes. of course, as with responding to any crisis or emergency face - yes. of course, as with responding to any crisis or emergency face by l to any crisis or emergency face by government, the absence of a book or a report to tell you how to do it is going to have an impact on your practical efficiency and your ability to respond?- practical efficiency and your ability to respond? yes, this was the first major— ability to respond? yes, this was the first major pandemic - ability to respond? yes, this was the first major pandemic in - ability to respond? yes, this was the first major pandemic in living memory, there wasn't anybody who had responded to it, none of my living predecessors has had to do with something on this scale. indeed. you are aware from _ something on this scale. indeed. you are aware from the _ something on this scale. indeed. you are aware from the witness _ something on this scale. indeed. you| are aware from the witness statement of lord sedwill, the cabinet secretary, that the report to the prime minister in the summer of 2020 where he said the dhse was neither structured nor resourced for a public health crisis of this magnitude. granted it is a very broad observation and it doesn't deal with the institutional links between the dhse and the nhs, or the scientific advisory structure, or the possibility that there would be movements in personnel for ramping up movements in personnel for ramping up and funding for the department, but in a broad sense that is a correct proposition, is it not? structurally and in terms of resources when the crisis broke, the dhse was under part?— resources when the crisis broke, the dhse was under part? well, he didn't use the word — dhse was under part? well, he didn't use the word under _ dhse was under part? well, he didn't use the word under par, _ dhse was under part? well, he didn't use the word under par, they - dhse was under part? well, he didn't use the word under par, they are - use the word under par, they are your words. use the word under par, they are yourwords. i use the word under par, they are your words. i would reject that because the senior personnel in the dhse were absolutely superb and rose to the challenge. but it is blazingly obvious that when a pandemic strikes the health department is going to have more to do and so i regard the comet is very straightforward. can do and so i regard the comet is very straightforward.— do and so i regard the comet is very straightforward. can we have 273901, .ae. straightforward. can we have 273901, -a . e 78. straightforward. can we have 273901, page 78- this — straightforward. can we have 273901, page 78- this is _ straightforward. can we have 273901, page 78. this is an _ straightforward. can we have 273901, page 78. this is an extract _ straightforward. can we have 273901, page 78. this is an extract from - straightforward. can we have 273901, page 78. this is an extract from sir i page 78. this is an extract from sir patrick vallance's diaries, dated the 3rd ofjune 2020. could we have paid 587. —— page 587. also clear a lack of grip in dhse, this is injuly, very good analysis, no grip on actions. page 594. e—mailfrom within e—mail from within dhse e—mailfrom within dhse described it as ungovernable and with competing parts. i will summarise, as ungovernable and with competing parts. iwill summarise, there as ungovernable and with competing parts. i will summarise, there are other diary entries into patrick vallance's notes he says it is clear that once again the dhs e has done nothing. people love in point, no clear operational accountability, and so on. —— lobbying in. regardless of what reasonable mitigation might be offered and there is mitigation offered, senior figures in government continue to express concern over a number of months, sir patrick vallance and others, about the state of the dhse, correct? ~ ., �* ~ ., correct? well, i don't know whether these parts — correct? well, i don't know whether these parts of _ correct? well, i don't know whether these parts of sir _ correct? well, i don't know whether these parts of sir patrick _ correct? well, i don't know whether these parts of sir patrick pulled - these parts of sir patrick pulled back diaries were contemporaneous because i know some were written after the event. because i know some were written after the event-— because i know some were written after the event. with respect, these were notes made _ after the event. with respect, these were notes made more _ were notes made more contemporaneously than your diary book. the vast majority were written on the day or the day after. emir; on the day or the day after. only some were _ on the day or the day after. only some were written _ on the day or the day after. only some were written later. - on the day or the day after. only some were written later. as i say, we don't know whether these were contemporaneous, but that is by the by. the point here in response is that when you have an enormous, unprecedented event, the department thatis unprecedented event, the department that is in the forefront of responding to it of course is going to do its best to write to the challenge and that is what the dhse did. did everything go right? of course it didn't and you wouldn't expect it to. it is natural for the centre, the cabinet office, to be sceptical of departments. i was a cabinet office minister as you noted and the culture of the cabinet office is to be sceptical of the operation of departments and to hold them to account. i think the toxic culture you have seen at the centre of government that has been the subject of much discussion was unhelpful in assuming that when anything was difficult or a challenge, therefore there was somehow fault and blame. that is a part of the toxic culture that we have seen and some of these exhibits that you have just shown demonstrate a lack of generosity or empathy and understanding the difficulty of rising to such a big challenge. did the dhse need to expand and grow? of course. did it get everything right? no, of course not. no doubt we will go into individual challenges. but did it rise to the challenge over all of responding to the biggest public health crisis in a century? i think it did. if you look at the successes, for instance, on the growth of testing what the department or that over, getting the vaccine roll it up and running, various other projects, so we can go through all of the detail. in terms of lessons learned what is crucial is that any department in the future is that any department in the future is ready to go. i make one final point, if i may, which is relevant to your question. at the start of the pandemic the department, including me, was trying to wake up whitehall to this fact. early on the department ended up doing things which really are not for a health department, but we were doing them because nobody else was. {guild department, but we were doing them because nobody else was.— because nobody else was. could you rive us because nobody else was. could you give us one — because nobody else was. could you give us one or _ because nobody else was. could you give us one or two _ because nobody else was. could you give us one or two examples? - because nobody else was. could you give us one or two examples? i - because nobody else was. could you give us one or two examples? i will| give us one or two examples? i will rive ou give us one or two examples? i will give you one _ give us one or two examples? i will give you one example, _ give us one or two examples? i will give you one example, the - give us one or two examples? iii-h" ll give you one example, the shielding the vulnerable is a programme that eventually was one very well by chris townsend, who was brought in from outside. it was about how to get groceries to people, how to make sure that people got support, including from volunteers. how to make sure we look after those who were the most vulnerable. that is clearly across government effort and rightly led from a department that isn't the health department. but i had to commissioned the work to get that going from the health department. similarly, the view over whether or not to close schools ended up within the health department early on. that was taken back into the cabinet office and rightly show. so the department, yes, had a huge amount to do, but i would argue that because the rest of whitehall was slow getting going we had to get up there and do it. if that lead to criticisms from those in the centre of government, then, frankly, i would far rather that we did step up and take that responsibility even though it brought us flak later and evidently flak at the time that i wasn't aware of because these issues were never raised with me personally. scepticism, is that the reference, and you know very well that we will come to this later, the notion that individuals in central government were critical of your department because they were tarring your department with the same brush as they were you, that there was a campaign, if you like, of spite and aggression against you and your department, is that we knew our suggestion by the national scepticism towards the dhse? well. scepticism towards the dhse? well, there is healthy _ scepticism towards the dhse? well, there is healthy scepticism - scepticism towards the dhse? -ll there is healthy scepticism at the centre of government of departments in which they challenge, hold to account, and generally try to keep departments moving forward. as a cabinet office minister, one of my roles was to make sure that departments were delivering on what they said that they would deliver. we have seen from the e—mails, and the messages, which i wasn't aware of at the time, that clearly flipped over into an unhealthy, toxic culture at the centre where anything that went wrong was seen as an almost intentional failure and worse, that amongst some people misinformation about what the department was delivering was spread, including to the prime minister and at the very highest levels. so a healthy culture involves challenge and scepticism and an unhealthy, toxic culture involves a failure properly to engage and instead throwing out false allegations and extremely unpleasant language. what you will notice when you go through all of the documents is you just didn't have that within the health family. i tried to lead a positive culture, a can—do culture, where if there was a can—do culture, where if there was a problem, the question that was raised in the department was how do we fix this? that didn't happen all of the time. of course there were moments for frustration, but that was my overall attitude in these areas. i lead, and you can see unfortunately, that we rubbed up against this deep unpleasantness at the centre. you against this deep unpleasantness at the centre. ., ., ., , the centre. you are doing extremely well, mr hancock, _ the centre. you are doing extremely well, mr hancock, in _ the centre. you are doing extremely well, mr hancock, in terms - the centre. you are doing extremely well, mr hancock, in terms of- the centre. you are doing extremely well, mr hancock, in terms of the i well, mr hancock, in terms of the speed of your response, could you however try to be a little bit more concise in your answers. l however try to be a little bit more concise in your answers.— however try to be a little bit more concise in your answers.- i l concise in your answers. i will. i ask ou concise in your answers. i will. i ask you deliberately _ concise in your answers. i will. i ask you deliberately to - concise in your answers. i will. i ask you deliberately to give - concise in your answers. i will. i ask you deliberately to give the | ask you deliberately to give the inquiry some examples of where you feel the dhse has excelled, and you refer to testing and the vaccination programme, and also to shielding. the testing it is self evident was a process that was under way and a great deal of time and energy was devoted to it throughout 2020 but it really only reached its fruition later in the year. vaccination was a matter only from 2021 largely. lie. matter only from 2021 largely. no, the work on _ matter only from 2021 largely. llrr, the work on vaccination had started in january 2020. mr the work on vaccination had started in january 2020-— in january 2020. mr hancock, will ou in january 2020. mr hancock, will you please _ in january 2020. mr hancock, will you please wait — in january 2020. mr hancock, will you please wait for _ in january 2020. mr hancock, will you please wait for the _ in january 2020. mr hancock, will you please wait for the question. | you please wait for the question. the vaccination programme was rolled out in 2021 and it is obvious that work was done on commissioning it and finding it and so on in advance. but the shielding programme was a cross government exercise led both ljy cross government exercise led both by the dhse and the general public services ministerial information group latterly. but in the early part of the year, so we are focusing in this module particularly on january, february, march, april, evidence has been given that the dhse focused too much on itself and on the acute health system nhs, as opposed to the wider, long—term health of the public. by that i mean a reference, and the witness made a reference to, health control, infection control, to the core issue infection control, to the core issue in the first part of the year of dealing with the spread of the virus. do you think that the dhse on this crucial issue of infection control, of dealing with that part of the public health crisis, was up to the mark?— of the public health crisis, was up to the mark? yes. now, insert patrick vallance's _ to the mark? yes. now, insert patrick vallance's records - to the mark? yes now, insert patrick vallance's records and in the evidence of helen mcnamara, there are repeated references to how in february and march you were, quote, desperate to own and lead, that you kept too much in the dhse, that you kept too much in the dhse, that you kept too much in the dhse, that you were reluctant to explain that you were reluctant to explain that there was a risk of the nhs becoming overwhelmed, and you are bad at asking the cabinet office for help. you are aware of the material. does that not rather suggest that in those vital days of january through to march, the dhse failed to tell central government how bad it was and what could be done to address the question of infection control? no, that is completely the wrong way round. from the middle ofjanuary we were trying to effectively raise the alarm. we were trying to wake up whitehall to the scale of the problem. and this was a problem that couldn't be addressed only from the health department. non—pharmaceutical interventions cannot be put in place by the health department, the health department can't shut schools. it should have been grasped and led from the centre of government earlier and you have seen evidence that repeatedly says that across the department and i tried to make this happen and we were on occasions blocked and at other times i would say we were... our concerns other times i would say we were... 0ur concerns were other times i would say we were... our concerns were not taken as seriously as they should have been until the very end of february. for instance, the very first time i try to call a cobra i was blocked ultimately only for 48 hours because i got other voices to call for a cobra and it happened. and getting the machine at the centre of government up and running was incredibly hard and took a huge amount of effort. when it did finally get up and running at the end of february then things started to move. i have heard these accusations that we try to do too much. on the contrary, there were so much. on the contrary, there were so much that needed to be done and in some cases wejust much that needed to be done and in some cases we just had to get on and do it, it would have been far better if instead of thinking that we were overreacting, as the cobra machine clearly thought we were, if they had embraced the challenges and it had been led from the centre. if i think had there been under another regime, under another cabinet secretary, i was a minister under david cameron and andy theresa may, you know, the centre would have chaired those early cobra meetings. yes, a secretary of state i would have played a big part, but it would have been a cross government effort and in future that is what it should be. the lead government department model worked very well for small crises to medium—size crises, but it does not work for a crisis that is a whole of government, indeed a whole of society crisis. indie government, indeed a whole of society crisis.— government, indeed a whole of society crisis. government, indeed a whole of socie crisis. ~ ., society crisis. we will come back to cobra and you _ society crisis. we will come back to cobra and you are _ society crisis. we will come back to cobra and you are aware _ society crisis. we will come back to cobra and you are aware i - society crisis. we will come back to cobra and you are aware i will - society crisis. we will come back to cobra and you are aware i will be i cobra and you are aware i will be asking you about particular cobra meetings. you have given an example thereof cobra and you have put it in thereof cobra and you have put it in the context of the difficulties of getting the government machine going until the end of february. yes. getting the government machine going until the end of february.— until the end of february. yes, at the centre. _ until the end of february. yes, at the centre, the _ until the end of february. yes, at the centre, the department - until the end of february. yes, at the centre, the department was i the centre, the department was working on this for the middle of january. ll working on this for the middle of janua . . . . working on this for the middle of janua . ., , ., ., january. if it was hard to get the government _ january. if it was hard to get the government machine _ january. if it was hard to get the government machine going, - january. if it was hard to get thej government machine going, and january. if it was hard to get the - government machine going, and you refer to the effort required and the difficulties you encounter, maybe we take it from that that the system took time to be geared up at the centre of government? yes. presumably _ centre of government? yes. presumably there _ centre of government? yes. presumably there was - centre of government? yes. presumably there was an i centre of government? yes presumably there was an avoidable delay baked into this government system. if it took time to get it going to react sufficiently, then time would have been lost? to be fair, the time would have been lost? to be fair. the early _ time would have been lost? to be fair, the early actions _ time would have been lost? to be fair, the early actions that - time would have been lost? to be fair, the early actions that were i fair, the early actions that were needed were essentially health department and the health family actions, developing the early test, making sure that we supported the universities who were developing the vaccines. the very early contact tracing an responses to individual cases. the first cases didn't come to the uk until the very end of january, starting february. and so the early actions were for the department. so i thought it was reasonable, for instance the very first cobra, that i should share it. but there was a when we needed to go broader than are things that ought to be the remit of the department. my to be the remit of the department. my argument and point in response to these allegations that we held too much within the department, or that we didn't get on with stuff, is, and somebody has accused the department of being overwhelmed, but we were certainly very, very busy and we were having to do things that in
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