eventually, city awoke from their hibernation. one touch from erling haaland set them on their way before phil foden twisted and turned the game around. now city were cruising and it was julian alvarez who added the party piece. from 2—0 down, the holders march on. katie gornall, bbc news. time for a look at the weather. here's elizabeth rizzini. thank you, if you think it is cold at the moment, things are about to turn a lot colder as we head through the rest of the week with plunging temperatures once more. they could be some winter it on the way including the likes of aviemore, even potentially some lower levels as well, some regulating snow the inquiry was tasked with learning lessons for the future but is the focus more on the politics and less on the pandemic? we'll bejoined by charlie rowley, michael gove�*s former special adviser. professor carl heneghan, professor of evidence based medicine at oxford university. and tracy brown, the director of sense about science. more hostages have been released from gaza tonight, but the youngest, ten—month—old kfir bibas, is still being held. we speak to a close relative and we ask whether the fragile truce in gaza will hold for more than another day. and as the race is on for the government to clear the backlog of roughly 90,000 asylum cases before december — we speak to an afghan journalist who has had his claim approved, but then found himself sleeping on the streets of liverpool. there are six acts in the covid inquiry. the first was about preparedness, and now act 2 is about how decisionmaking was handled in government. so, between now and christmas, there will be a procession of former ministers, including a prime minister, borisjohnson, senior politicians, and finally rishi sunak giving evidence, opinion, and veiled and not so veiled criticism of colleagues, to the inquiry chair lady hallett. first up today was michael gove, the secretary of state for levelling up, who was cabinet secretary during the pandemic, and straight out of the traps, he apologised to "victims and families who endured so much loss." and said that the uk was too slow to call the first lockdown — we didn't go early enough or hard enough on restrictions. and he criticised the tendency of successive prime ministers to use the cabinet office as a mary poppins bag into which they shoved things they require to be dealt with by the government's nanny — and some of the foul language we've become accustomed to at this inquiry. nick's here. tell us about these exchanges. one ofthe tell us about these exchanges. one of the big things — tell us about these exchanges. (me: of the big things about this tell us about these exchanges. (he: of the big things about this inquiry is when a high—profile witness appears you have a pretty good idea of what they thought about the covid response but you have absolutely no idea what whatsapp messages related to them will pop up from the treasure trove of internal messages from that time. as you say it was the term today of michael gove and an intriguing whatsapp exchange with his old friend dominic cummings who at that stage was boris johnson's strategy chief in 10 downing street. you will remember there was a huge fury when dominic cummings was spotted with his family at barnard castle after he had taken them home to county durham in an apparent breach of lockdown rules. a notorious downing street press conference because the national lockdown had just been imposed so let's take a look at this whatsapp message dominic cummings sent to michael gove on the 11th of march 2020. 16 days before he travelled north. the background was he was very frustrated with civil servants in the cabinet office. who was their boss? michael gove. this is what he said. was that eerily prescient or was it a figure of speech came back at the time at that press conference dominic cummings had said he had travelled north because he was worried about the health of his family, they were showing covid symptoms and particularly worried about their child. later he said there was a security issue for him and his family. our love that as now at the inquiry it is the turn of senior politicians at the time and another big characteristic of this inquiry, very strong language. our leaders during the uk's gravest peacetime challenge, and now time for them to account for their decisions, or lack of decisions, during the pandemic. i swear by almighty god... up today the cabinet minister running the engine room of government at the time. and nothing but the truth. i want to take this opportunity, if i may, my lady, to apologise to the victims who endured so much pain, the families who endured so much loss as a result of the mistakes that were made by government in response to the pandemic. humility from a politician not exactly lacking in self—confidence, and setting a tone likely to make life difficult for other politicians should they wish to adopt a different approach. michael gove's evidence was balanced on the key question, whether the government was too slow to grip the pandemic in february and march 2020. for the prosecution, a whatsapp exchange with the number ten chief and his old friend dominic cummings on the 4th of march 2020, in which gove said, you know me, i don't often kick off but we are locking up as a government and missing golden opportunities. on the other side of the ledger, a defence of borisjohnson who was resisting a full lockdown on the 16th of march 2020, by which time gove thought it was time to do just that. he preferred gladiatorial decision—making rather than inquisitorial. he wanted to see the two cases or three cases rehearsed in front of him, or even rehearsed in his own mind. a week later borisjohnson imposed a full lockdown. a rare intervention today from the inquiry chair to say she has an open mind after michael gove suggested otherwise. can i assure you and others that i don't have any settled views as yet. i will not reach any conclusion until i have considered all the evidence. this inquiry has a long way to go and its overall conclusions will no doubt be balanced, pointing out the failures and the successes of the government response. but for the politicians who are taking the stand over the next few weeks, no doubt findings that are both comfortable and uncomfortable. for any inquiry there are at least two things it needs to do. one is accountability and assigning blame where appropriate and the other is learning lessons. i think one of the really striking things about this module in particular is that the public theatre, in the chair and inquiry hot seat, has been a lot about accountability. there has been a sense through some of the hearings that some of it is about the prosecution of borisjohnson or matt hancock or other senior ministers. in one sense that's what the inquiry should be doing, it's an accountability process, it is about assigning responsibility. but it also should be looking under the bonnet about the lessons to learn and to make sure that we are better prepared for a pandemic with all those impossible decisions ministers will be grappling with. that could be one of the really blockbuster appearances. hold your seats for borisjohnson, says one commentator. we know michael gove was pushing hard behind the scenes along with matt hancock to look down early with more precautions. we know that rishi sunak was seen as the lockdown hawk, and some describe him as doctor death, we have learned because of the inquiry, and his team. therefore when it comes to borisjohnson he was always stuck between the two sides, there is frustration we have seen so far in all those whatsapp messages. they would say one thing, one group think they have got the answer then it would flip the other way. so the hearing has come to having had time to reflect on the pandemic and time out of government will probably be the most surprising, potentially, piece of evidence so far. taking the stand, the powerful humbled by a deadly virus have their say as the inquisitors look for answers. joining me now is michael gove's former special advisor charlie rowley, the director at the university of oxford's centre for evidence—based medicine, professor carl heneghan, and tracey brown, director of the charitable organisation, sense about science, who push for more transparency about what evidence the government use to make policy decisions. good evening to you all. charlie rowley, first of all, you were buying michael gove's side all the way through and the cabinet office. it is the first time a government minister has apologise for mistakes made during the pandemic. how significant do you think that will turn out to be? i significant do you think that will turn out to be?— significant do you think that will turn out to be? i think it was the riaht turn out to be? i think it was the right thing _ turn out to be? i think it was the right thing to — turn out to be? i think it was the right thing to do. _ turn out to be? i think it was the right thing to do. everybody - right thing to do. everybody suffered during the pandemic whether you are a brave member of the family who has lost someone you hold dear because of the virus are whether you have made sacrifices are suffering from mental health and long covid or children at school may have suffered because they couldn't catch up with education, everyone has made sacrifices. it is absolutely right that a senior government minister like michael gove, it was absolutely the right thing to do to set the tone at the beginning of his evidence to apologise and say sorry to those victims. find evidence to apologise and say sorry to those victims.— to those victims. and inevitably durinu to those victims. and inevitably during this _ to those victims. and inevitably during this inquiry, _ to those victims. and inevitably during this inquiry, we - to those victims. and inevitably during this inquiry, we are - to those victims. and inevitably | during this inquiry, we are going to those victims. and inevitably . during this inquiry, we are going to hear about partygate and it will be either unedifying or edifying. again. either unedifying or edifying. aaain. ~ , ,., , either unedifying or edifying. aaain. , , ., ., either unedifying or edifying. aaain. , ., ., ., again. absolutely again, and the cli ou again. absolutely again, and the clip you played — again. absolutely again, and the clip you played there _ again. absolutely again, and the clip you played there where - again. absolutely again, and the clip you played there where is i clip you played there where is absolutely right because the public are aware of partygate and the whatsapp messages, and the language falls way below the standards expected of anybody in the high public office but what the inquiry really needs to do and what the public expect of the inquiry is to get to the bottom of the decisions made, how were they made, were they right or wrong and could they have been better made or better communications and could have been better outcomes, all to ensure that if there is another pandemic virus of any kind that we need to act in the way we did, any government would be better prepared to handle it. it be better prepared to handle it. if i can come to you, tracy, what you are saying is we want to make sense to the public what was going on and presumably we will come to that, but you accept, i assume, decision—makers, the politicians, there will be demonstrations and blame and a lot ofjustifications? i think it is really important there is accountability. the problem we are having — is accountability. the problem we are having at the moment is mixing up are having at the moment is mixing up lessons — are having at the moment is mixing up lessons learned with accountability. holding back your data at— accountability. holding back your data at the treasury or your modelling because you are in a spiteful— modelling because you are in a spiteful row with another department isn't a _ spiteful row with another department isn't a lessons to be learned, it is 'ust isn't a lessons to be learned, it is just had _ isn't a lessons to be learned, it is just bad behaviour and somebody needs_ just bad behaviour and somebody needs to — just bad behaviour and somebody needs to be to account. that is what we are _ needs to be to account. that is what we are seeing at the moment, complete _ we are seeing at the moment, complete confusion. i don't know what _ complete confusion. i don't know what michael apologise for today, it wasn't _ what michael apologise for today, it wasn't particularly clear. some of the things— wasn't particularly clear. some of the things that were done were not lessons _ the things that were done were not lessons to— the things that were done were not lessons to be learned, they are just bad practice, poorattitudes, and i think_ bad practice, poorattitudes, and i think we _ bad practice, poorattitudes, and i think we will see some of that. you were very vocal _ think we will see some of that. i'm. were very vocal during the pandemic, no fan of the lockdown. in a way does it give you some kind of heart to see michael gove saying we should have looked down harder and earlier. is that actually useful now? i have looked down harder and earlier. is that actually useful now?— is that actually useful now? i think what is happening _ is that actually useful now? i think what is happening here, _ is that actually useful now? i think what is happening here, we - is that actually useful now? i think what is happening here, we are i what is happening here, we are seeing — what is happening here, we are seeing a — what is happening here, we are seeing a number— what is happening here, we are seeing a numberof_ what is happening here, we are seeing a number of measures. what is happening here, we are i seeing a number of measures and what is happening here, we are - seeing a number of measures and it is coming _ seeing a number of measures and it is coming down _ seeing a number of measures and it is coming down to— seeing a number of measures and it is coming down to one _ seeing a number of measures and it is coming down to one or— seeing a number of measures and it is coming down to one or two- seeing a number of measures and itl is coming down to one or two things. in is coming down to one or two things. in 2020 _ is coming down to one or two things. in 2020 there — is coming down to one or two things. in 2020 there were _ is coming down to one or two things. in 2020 there were over 200 - is coming down to one or two things. in 2020 there were over 200 policy i in 2020 there were over 200 policy decisions _ in 2020 there were over 200 policy decisions and — in 2020 there were over 200 policy decisions and we _ in 2020 there were over 200 policy decisions and we say, _ in 2020 there were over 200 policy decisions and we say, how- in 2020 there were over 200 policy decisions and we say, how do - in 2020 there were over 200 policy decisions and we say, how do we i decisions and we say, how do we learn _ decisions and we say, how do we learn lessons? _ decisions and we say, how do we learn lessons? number- decisions and we say, how do we learn lessons? number one, - decisions and we say, how do we learn lessons? number one, wel decisions and we say, how do we - learn lessons? number one, we need to set— learn lessons? number one, we need to set out— learn lessons? number one, we need to set out to — learn lessons? number one, we need to set out to make _ learn lessons? number one, we need to set out to make those _ learn lessons? number one, we need to set out to make those policies - learn lessons? number one, we need to set out to make those policies on i to set out to make those policies on what evidence — to set out to make those policies on what evidence and _ to set out to make those policies on what evidence and who _ to set out to make those policies on what evidence and who signed - to set out to make those policies on what evidence and who signed off. i what evidence and who signed off. and each— what evidence and who signed off. and each one _ what evidence and who signed off. and each one of— what evidence and who signed off. and each one of them, _ what evidence and who signed off. and each one of them, whether. what evidence and who signed off. and each one of them, whether it| what evidence and who signed off. i and each one of them, whether it is row of— and each one of them, whether it is row of six. — and each one of them, whether it is row of six. ten— and each one of them, whether it is row of six, ten o'clock— and each one of them, whether it is row of six, ten o'clock curfew- row of six, ten o'clock curfew masks. — row of six, ten o'clock curfew masks. need _ row of six, ten o'clock curfew masks. need to— row of six, ten o'clock curfew masks, need to be _ row of six, ten o'clock curfew masks, need to be outlined. | row of six, ten o'clock curfew- masks, need to be outlined. what we keep hearing — masks, need to be outlined. what we keep hearing is — masks, need to be outlined. what we keep hearing is that _ masks, need to be outlined. what we keep hearing is that people _ masks, need to be outlined. what we keep hearing is that people keep- keep hearing is that people keep saying _ keep hearing is that people keep saying nothing _ keep hearing is that people keep saying nothing worked, - keep hearing is that people keep saying nothing worked, the - keep hearing is that people keep saying nothing worked, the tier. saying nothing worked, the tier svstem — saying nothing worked, the tier system didn't— saying nothing worked, the tier system didn't work, _ saying nothing worked, the tier system didn't work, hancock. saying nothing worked, the tier. system didn't work, hancock told saying nothing worked, the tier- system didn't work, hancock told me. lockdowns _ system didn't work, hancock told me. lockdowns were — system didn't work, hancock told me. lockdowns were too _ system didn't work, hancock told me. lockdowns were too late. _ system didn't work, hancock told me. lockdowns were too late. therefore . lockdowns were too late. therefore the 201st _ lockdowns were too late. therefore the 201st policy, _ lockdowns were too late. therefore the 2015t policy, if _ lockdowns were too late. therefore the 2015t policy, if we _ lockdowns were too late. therefore the 2015t policy, if we had - lockdowns were too late. therefore the 2015t policy, if we had only- the 2015t policy, if we had only locked — the 2015t policy, if we had only locked down _ the 2015t policy, if we had only locked down a _ the 2015t policy, if we had only locked down a week _ the 2015t policy, if we had only locked down a week earlier- the 2015t policy, if we had only| locked down a week earlier was the 2015t policy, if we had only- locked down a week earlier was the answer~ _ locked down a week earlier was the answer~ that — locked down a week earlier was the answer. that will— locked down a week earlier was the answer. that will not _ locked down a week earlier was the answer. that will not help us - locked down a week earlier was the answer. that will not help us learnl answer. that will not help us learn lessons _ answer. that will not help us learn lessons the — answer. that will not help us learn lessons. the key— answer. that will not help us learn lessons. the key is— answer. that will not help us learn lessons. the key is how— answer. that will not help us learn lessons. the key is how were - lessons. the key is how were decisions _ lessons. the key is how were decisions made _ lessons. the key is how were decisions made and - lessons. the key is how were decisions made and on - lessons. the key is how were decisions made and on whatl lessons. the key is how were - decisions made and on what basis? the other— decisions made and on what basis? the other important _ decisions made and on what basis? the other important issue, - decisions made and on what basis? the other important issue, how- decisions made and on what basis? the other important issue, how didj the other important issue, how did we evaluate — the other important issue, how did we evaluate them _ the other important issue, how did we evaluate them to _ the other important issue, how did we evaluate them to understand i the other important issue, how did i we evaluate them to understand now what worked — we evaluate them to understand now what worked and _ we evaluate them to understand now what worked and what _ we evaluate them to understand now what worked and what didn't? - we evaluate them to understand now what worked and what didn't? i- what worked and what didn't? i have not heard _ what worked and what didn't? i have not heard a — what worked and what didn't? i have not heard a single _ what worked and what didn't? i have not heard a single person— what worked and what didn't? i have not heard a single person yet- not heard a single person yet see this is— not heard a single person yet see this is what— not heard a single person yet see this is what worked. _ not heard a single person yet see this is what worked.— this is what worked. charlie, a metaphor _ this is what worked. charlie, a metaphor for _ this is what worked. charlie, a metaphor for mary _ this is what worked. charlie, a metaphor for mary poppins i this is what worked. charlie, a l metaphor for mary poppins bag. this is what worked. charlie, a i metaphor for mary poppins bag. did metaphorfor mary poppins bag. did it feel like that, all the hard stuff thrown in the cabinet office? it did and it does and it is historically the case at the cabinet office because it is not a government department that has things like health and pensions, you are the cabinet office where you are, all kinds of things where you could be looking at equality issues, national security... could be looking at equality issues, national security. . ._ national security... you are exoected — national security... you are exoected to _ national security... you are expected to handle - national security... you are expected to handle stuff i national security... you are i expected to handle stuff really fast? ., ., ., , , fast? you have to broker between different departments _ fast? you have to broker between different departments that - fast? you have to broker between different departments that may i fast? you have to broker between| different departments that may be fast? you have to broker between i different departments that may be in conflict and you are the office that gets sent in to resolve those issues. and that can just be on any given day, but when it comes to covid, when it impacts on everybody, you are really trying to deal with the entire government.- you are really trying to deal with the entire government. trying to deal with the _ the entire government. trying to deal with the entire _ the entire government. trying to deal with the entire government| the entire government. trying to l deal with the entire government in trying to deal with endless tweaks and decisions and maybe bits of information that were neither helpful nor correct. tracy, let's look at something. andy burnham talked about manchester couldn't go to the football but you could in london, you could put the house up for rent but not have your mother there. is for rent but not have your mother there. , . , , for rent but not have your mother there. , ., , , , , . there. is there a sense the public were being _ there. is there a sense the public were being taken _ there. is there a sense the public were being taken for _ there. is there a sense the public were being taken for phil's? i there. is there a sense the public. were being taken for phil's? loads of stuff didn't _ were being taken for phil's? loads of stuff didn't make _ were being taken for phil's? loads of stuff didn't make sense to i of stuff didn't make sense to people _ of stuff didn't make sense to people. people are having to make a lot of— people. people are having to make a lot of decisions, bus companies were having _ lot of decisions, bus companies were having to _ lot of decisions, bus companies were having to say, do we leave a teenager— having to say, do we leave a teenager stranded on a lonely road because _ teenager stranded on a lonely road because she doesn't have a mask or the elector— because she doesn't have a mask or the elector on the bus? people having — the elector on the bus? people having to — the elector on the bus? people having to make trade—offs and decisions, _ having to make trade—offs and decisions, do i shut my cafe... and to to that, — decisions, do i shut my cafe... and to to that, people _ decisions, do i shut my cafe... and to to that, people in _ decisions, do i shut my cafe... fific to to that, people in their heads were thinking i am going to do something morally wrong that could kill somebody what i will get a fine for this. , . , for this. this was the thing, people felt very responsible. _ for this. this was the thing, people felt very responsible. we were i for this. this was the thing, people felt very responsible. we were not| felt very responsible. we were not 'ust felt very responsible. we were not just a _ felt very responsible. we were not just a bunch of people waiting to be told to— just a bunch of people waiting to be told to hand space space every day for three _ told to hand space space every day for three years. we needed access to that and _ for three years. we needed access to that and one — for three years. we needed access to that and one of the lessons are not coming _ that and one of the lessons are not coming out — that and one of the lessons are not coming out is the government is not up coming out is the government is not up to— coming out is the government is not up to share — coming out is the government is not up to share emerging information with the _ up to share emerging information with the public. it is setup to apply— with the public. it is setup to apply for— with the public. it is setup to apply for a passport or a driving licence, — apply for a passport or a driving licence, not to share data and tell people _ licence, not to share data and tell people what is going on. as licence, not to share data and tell people what is going on. its a licence, not to share data and tell people what is going on. as a worry about litigation _ people what is going on. as a worry about litigation or _ people what is going on. as a worry about litigation or about _ about litigation or about confidentiality?- about litigation or about confidentiality? about litigation or about confidentiali ? ., ., , confidentiality? there are so many thins, so confidentiality? there are so many things. so many — confidentiality? there are so many things, so many areas _ confidentiality? there are so many things, so many areas where i confidentiality? there are so many l things, so many areas where sharing a bit things, so many areas where sharing a hit of— things, so many areas where sharing a hit of the _ things, so many areas where sharing a bit of the evidence base, letting people _ a bit of the evidence base, letting people know, teachers can shout at students _ people know, teachers can shout at students for one thing is they come in for— students for one thing is they come in for the _ students for one thing is they come in for the break. students for one thing is they come in forthe break. is students for one thing is they come in for the break. is it we mask or is it— in for the break. is it we mask or is it distance? has won an order of magnitude — is it distance? has won an order of magnitude better for preventing covid _ magnitude better for preventing covid transmission, who knew? lets to back to covid transmission, who knew? lets go back to the _ covid transmission, who knew? lets go back to the decision making. do you think there was enough diversity of thought and do you think the right people in the room, for example, leaving you to decide, do you think tracey brown should have beenin you think tracey brown should have been in the room? i you think tracey brown should have been in the room?— been in the room? i respect traci lords and — been in the room? i respect traci lords and think— been in the room? i respect traci lords and think she _ been in the room? i respect traci lords and think she has - been in the room? i respect traci lords and think she has a - been in the room? i respect traci lords and think she has a lot i been in the room? i respect traci lords and think she has a lot of. lords and think she has a lot of common— lords and think she has a lot of common sense _ lords and think she has a lot of common sense but _ lords and think she has a lot of common sense but let's - lords and think she has a lot of common sense but let's look. lords and think she has a lot ofj common sense but let's look at lords and think she has a lot of- common sense but let's look at what the issue _ common sense but let's look at what the issue is— common sense but let's look at what the issue is here. _ common sense but let's look at what the issue is here. when— common sense but let's look at what the issue is here. when the - common sense but let's look at what the issue is here. when the next- the issue is here. when the next pandemic— the issue is here. when the next pandemic comes _ the issue is here. when the next pandemic comes and _ the issue is here. when the next pandemic comes and with - the issue is here. when the next pandemic comes and with a i the issue is here. when the next- pandemic comes and with a completely different— pandemic comes and with a completely different set _ pandemic comes and with a completely different set of— pandemic comes and with a completely different set of people,, _ pandemic comes and with a completely different set of people,, is it— pandemic comes and with a completely different set of people,, is it ok - different set of people,, is it ok to have — different set of people,, is it ok to have four— different set of people,, is it ok to have four people at _ different set of people,, is it ok to have four people at 9:15am i different set of people,, is it ok l to have four people at 9:15am just that the _ to have four people at 9:15am just that the government _ to have four people at 9:15am just that the government cabinet i to have four people at 9:15am just that the government cabinet levelj that the government cabinet level making _ that the government cabinet level making the — that the government cabinet level making the decisions _ that the government cabinet level making the decisions when - that the government cabinet levell making the decisions when michael gove said _ making the decisions when michael gove said that _ making the decisions when michael gove said that he _ making the decisions when michael gove said that he profoundly- making the decisions when michael| gove said that he profoundly feared interventions — gove said that he profoundly feared interventions would _ gove said that he profoundly feared interventions would not _ gove said that he profoundly feared interventions would not be - gove said that he profoundly feared interventions would not be enough. j interventions would not be enough. that is— interventions would not be enough. that is one — interventions would not be enough. that is one issue. _ interventions would not be enough. that is one issue. what _ interventions would not be enough. that is one issue. what they- interventions would not be enough. that is one issue. what they are i that is one issue. what they are saving _ that is one issue. what they are saving to — that is one issue. what they are saving to boris _ that is one issue. what they are saying to boris as _ that is one issue. what they are saying to boris as he _ that is one issue. what they are saying to boris as he wanted i saying to boris as he wanted opposing _ saying to boris as he wanted opposing arguments- saying to boris as he wanted opposing arguments so i saying to boris as he wanted opposing arguments so he . saying to boris as he wanted i opposing arguments so he could saying to boris as he wanted _ opposing arguments so he could weigh them up _ opposing arguments so he could weigh them up and _ opposing arguments so he could weigh them up and i— opposing arguments so he could weigh them up and i think— opposing arguments so he could weigh them up and i think that _ opposing arguments so he could weigh them up and i think that is _ opposing arguments so he could weigh them up and i think that is actually i them up and i think that is actually them up and i think that is actually the approach — them up and i think that is actually the approach you _ them up and i think that is actually the approach you need. _ them up and i think that is actually the approach you need. you - them up and i think that is actually the approach you need. you need. the approach you need. you need people _ the approach you need. you need people feeding _ the approach you need. you need people feeding in _ the approach you need. you need people feeding in and _ the approach you need. you need people feeding in and clearly i the approach you need. you need i people feeding in and clearly giving you the _ people feeding in and clearly giving you the advice _ people feeding in and clearly giving you the advice we _ people feeding in and clearly giving you the advice we can _ people feeding in and clearly giving you the advice we can understand l people feeding in and clearly giving | you the advice we can understand it without _ you the advice we can understand it without setting _ you the advice we can understand it without setting the _ you the advice we can understand it without setting the policy. - you the advice we can understand it without setting the policy. is - you the advice we can understand it without setting the policy. is a i without setting the policy. is a real problem _ without setting the policy. is a real problem for— without setting the policy. is a real problem for scientists. ifl without setting the policy. is a j real problem for scientists. if i say to— real problem for scientists. if i say to you _ real problem for scientists. if i say to you here _ real problem for scientists. if i say to you here is _ real problem for scientists. if i say to you here is the - real problem for scientists. if i say to you here is the policy. real problem for scientists. if i i say to you here is the policy and then— say to you here is the policy and then retrofit _ say to you here is the policy and then retrofit the _ say to you here is the policy and then retrofit the evidence, i say to you here is the policy and then retrofit the evidence, my. then retrofit the evidence, myjob is to inform — then retrofit the evidence, myjob is to inform the _ then retrofit the evidence, myjob is to inform the decision - then retrofit the evidence, myjob is to inform the decision as - then retrofit the evidence, myjob is to inform the decision as you i is to inform the decision as you want that— is to inform the decision as you want that from _ is to inform the decision as you want that from both _ is to inform the decision as you want that from both sides. i is to inform the decision as you want that from both sides. the | is to inform the decision as you i want that from both sides. the key is who— want that from both sides. the key is who should — want that from both sides. the key is who should make that _ want that from both sides. the key is who should make that decision, i is who should make that decision, when _ is who should make that decision, when the — is who should make that decision, when the key— is who should make that decision, when the key problem _ is who should make that decision, when the key problem is - is who should make that decision, when the key problem is in - is who should make that decision, when the key problem is in the i is who should make that decision, l when the key problem is in the next pandemic— when the key problem is in the next pandemic the — when the key problem is in the next pandemic the same _ when the key problem is in the next pandemic the same set _ when the key problem is in the next pandemic the same set of— when the key problem is in the next pandemic the same set of people i when the key problem is in the next i pandemic the same set of people want to be there _ pandemic the same set of people want to be there and — pandemic the same set of people want to be there and those _ pandemic the same set of people want to be there and those people - pandemic the same set of people want to be there and those people are - to be there and those people are lacking _ to be there and those people are lacking experience _ to be there and those people are lacking experience and _ to be there and those people are i lacking experience and potentially might _ lacking experience and potentially might act— lacking experience and potentially might act on— lacking experience and potentially might act on emotions _ lacking experience and potentially might act on emotions and - lacking experience and potentially might act on emotions and fears i might act on emotions and fears which _ might act on emotions and fears which can— might act on emotions and fears which can lead _ might act on emotions and fears which can lead to _ might act on emotions and fears which can lead to catastrophic. might act on emotions and fears i which can lead to catastrophic harms which _ which can lead to catastrophic harms which we _ which can lead to catastrophic harms which we are — which can lead to catastrophic harms which we are facing _ which can lead to catastrophic harms which we are facing lots _ which can lead to catastrophic harms which we are facing lots of— which can lead to catastrophic harms which we are facing lots of those i which we are facing lots of those now into — which we are facing lots of those now into the _ which we are facing lots of those now into the long _ which we are facing lots of those now into the long term. - do you think there was enough diversity of thought, charlie? i don't think there was. what michael was saying earlier was right. if you locked down earlier and if there were hard to lock downs at the start, they could have been shot in the long term, or you might not have needed a second or third lockdown thereafter. so acting too late does impact on the way the virus is then controlled and everybody except at the first lockdown anywhere because the first lockdown anywhere because the public had moved quicker than the public had moved quicker than the government, to be frank. you then have to get into unlocking the country, where people are balancing freedoms of personal decision making and how you can look after a loved one in a care home or whether you could visit at all. these are the kinds of decisions where i don't think there was enough diversity in the room to say, hang on, you need to give the public more responsibility for doing the right thing and being able to be more caring. thing and being able to be more carina. , , ., , caring. this is the thing. people are experts _ caring. this is the thing. people are experts in — caring. this is the thing. people are experts in knowing - caring. this is the thing. people are experts in knowing how i caring. this is the thing. people are experts in knowing how to l are experts in knowing how to balance — are experts in knowing how to balance the risks they are managing in their_ balance the risks they are managing in their lives. if they are a foster carer, _ in their lives. if they are a foster carer, they— in their lives. if they are a foster carer, they know how to balance the risks of— carer, they know how to balance the risks of a _ carer, they know how to balance the risks of a replacement breaking down versus_ risks of a replacement breaking down versus catching covid, but too much of that _ versus catching covid, but too much of that was — versus catching covid, but too much of that was taken away from people by not _ of that was taken away from people by not sharing with them the workings _ by not sharing with them the workings behind the policy. big questions have been posed by the pandemic— questions have been posed by the pandemic which are novel. for example. _ pandemic which are novel. for example, civil servants don't normally _ example, civil servants don't normally get information from other civil servants in other countries, because — civil servants in other countries, because it — civil servants in other countries, because it has to go through the diplomatic service. in the middle of a pandemic, it's actually helpful if you are _ a pandemic, it's actually helpful if you are a — a pandemic, it's actually helpful if you are a testing person running a testing _ you are a testing person running a testing programme for the department of health _ testing programme for the department of health and social care to speak to your— of health and social care to speak to your counterpart elsewhere. but the were to your counterpart elsewhere. but they were doing that privately. exactly, but we need to learn a lesson — exactly, but we need to learn a lesson for— exactly, but we need to learn a lesson for something global. there were lots— lesson for something global. there were lots of interesting questions coming _ were lots of interesting questions coming out of this that are not obvious, — coming out of this that are not obvious, but we are not looking at those, _ obvious, but we are not looking at those, we — obvious, but we are not looking at those, we are just doing the personality bit. we those, we are just doing the personality bit.— those, we are just doing the personality bit. those, we are just doing the ersonali bit. ~ ., ., ., personality bit. we have four more acts to this — personality bit. we have four more acts to this opera, _ personality bit. we have four more acts to this opera, so _ personality bit. we have four more acts to this opera, so let's - personality bit. we have four more acts to this opera, so let's hope i personality bit. we have four more | acts to this opera, so let's hope we get something at the end of this. thank you all very much. as the ceasefire in gaza holds for another day, our screens are increasingly filled with the images of the israeli hostages returned to their families after a terrible ordeal, and gazan families reduced to living in tents as the cold sweeps in because their homes are destroyed or too precarious. both, very memorably, show the civilian casualties of this conflict. so the longer the pause continues, does it make the idea of a return to the fighting more shocking? in a moment, we'll be speaking to a close relative of the bibas family, who are still hostages. including four—year—old ariel, and his baby brother kfir, who is just ten months old. but first, here's joe. as the ceasefire enters its sixth and for now, final day, dozens of israeli hostages have been returned to their families. three times as many palestinian prisoners have been freed. and desperately needed aid has entered the gaza strip. so what happens next? hamas is in a very awkward position, strategically speaking, because it doesn't really have much to do here except for purely survive. israel absolutely wants to go back to attack the hamas terror infrastructure, the hamas terrorists, to be able to do so hand in hand with bringing back the rest of the hostages. but the question of bringing them back is complicated by the fact that hamas doesn't hold all the captives. new analysis by bbc arabic and bbc verify showed that at least ten other militant groups ranging from islamists to communists took part in joint exercises over the last three years. hamas, proscribed as a terrorist organisation, released propaganda videos of the training online. at least five of these groups participated in the atrocities of october 7th. the fact that so many armed groups are currently involved in one way or the other in the holding of israeli hostages adds yet more complexity to the ongoing negotiations that are happening under qatar's auspices. and it will — the fact that you have so many groups now that will need to have their say in terms of what happens, itjust makes things much more difficult. and it's one more thing that hamas will have to factor in when it decides when and how it starts to or continues to liberate israeli hostages. it's not certain exactly how many hostages remain in the wasteland that gaza has become. not everyone thinks this was part of the plan. i think hamas is acting very much an ad hoc sort of mode at the moment. i don't think it was prepared for the repercussions of october 7th, at least not to this degree. so at the moment, it's trying to extend the pause in fighting for as long as possible, probably with a hope that it can be eventually converted into an actual ceasefire, a hope that i don't think is going to be realised anytime soon. for the families of the hostages, getting them home is the main priority. but how that is best achieved is fiercely debated. from the israeli perspective, we better our diplomatic negotiations when we employ military pressure on the hamas terrorists. and that's why we're going to be going back to military pressure, hand in hand with the diplomacy. the initial release of hostages took weeks of painstaking negotiations. ten women and children per day of truce. but that calculation may well change when it comes to military hostages. when it comes to the potential freeing of israeli military personnel that hamas and other armed groups are holding, the price that these groups will ask in return will be much higher. and what we've seen over the past years is, that price has tended to be too costly in political terms for the israeli government. israel will most definitely bring back all of the hostages, and i say it sadly, live and dead, because i'm sure that there are also dead hostages right now. that's part of the game that hamas is playing. what we have to give in response is most definitely something that's very difficult. but we will. how much? that's already about negotiations. for many in israel tonight celebrating more returns, they will hope those negotiations can lead more hostages to freedom for the people of gaza who have suffered under weeks of bombardment, every day the diplomacy continues is another day of relative safety, but suffering still. ina in a moment, we hope to bejoined by yossi shnaider, a cousin of the bbc.co.uk/pudsey family, who are all hostages. —— a relative of the bibi family. i'm nowjoined with former deputy national security adviser for clinton and obama, mara rudman, and nomi bar—yaacov, an associate fellow at chatham house. what we're hearing from the israeli government spokesman is that hamas told the family they were no longer in charge of these hostages and in fact, that the children had been separated from the rest of the family. generalterms, is that separated from the rest of the family. general terms, is that what is happening? are hamas arguing with other groups to take hostages? the tra . ed other groups to take hostages? iie: tragedy of this case other groups to take hostages? ii9: tragedy of this case is that other groups to take hostages? ii9 tragedy of this case is that they were supposed to be released today. kfir was taken when he was nine months and clearly the most vulnerable among the hostages. it has now become apparent that hamas are not holding them. so the israeli army announced today that another group is holding them in the khan yunis area in the southern part of the gaza strip, but there are a lot of worrying questions about their whereabouts and their fate. mara, one of the other _ whereabouts and their fate. mara, one of the other stories _ whereabouts and their fate. mara, one of the other stories is - whereabouts and their fate. mara, one of the other stories is that - one of the other stories is that they were not on the list. whether they were not on the list. whether they are or not, if this ceasefire doesn't hold, are all hostages who are already in great danger with hamas, in greater danger if they are spread among other terrorist groups? i think you are still muted, sorry. sorry about that. i think it's likety— sorry about that. i think it's likely that the hostages are spread among _ likely that the hostages are spread among a _ likely that the hostages are spread among a variety of different groups. as you _ among a variety of different groups. as you reported at the top of this segment, — as you reported at the top of this segment, most analysis of the reatity— segment, most analysis of the reatity of— segment, most analysis of the reality of how these groups operate, the fact _ reality of how these groups operate, the fact that we know that multiple groups— the fact that we know that multiple groups went into israel for that horrific, — groups went into israel for that horrific, barbaric attack and the seizing — horrific, barbaric attack and the seizing of — horrific, barbaric attack and the seizing of hostages on october the 7th, seizing of hostages on october the 7th. so _ seizing of hostages on october the 7th, so there are already scattered, most _ 7th, so there are already scattered, most likety— 7th, so there are already scattered, most likely in various parts of gaza and among — most likely in various parts of gaza and among more than one cell group organisation and it is unclear will, the degree — organisation and it is unclear will, the degree of hamas control there. there _ the degree of hamas control there. there are _ the degree of hamas control there. there are two questions there, the first being, if they are spread among other groups, is the hamas thinking that the ceasefire could hold because people will think actually, hamas doesn't have everybody, so we shouldn't attack again at the moment? or do they lose the whip hand, does hamas lose the whip hand by not having all the hostages? i whip hand by not having all the hostaues? ~' ,, ., ., , whip hand by not having all the hostaues? ,, ,, ., ., , ., hostages? i think the qataris at this oint hostages? i think the qataris at this point are _ hostages? i think the qataris at this point are the _ hostages? i think the qataris at this point are the ones - hostages? i think the qataris at this point are the ones who - hostages? i think the qataris at this point are the ones who are | this point are the ones who are assessing _ this point are the ones who are assessing. they are the ones talking directty— assessing. they are the ones talking directly with hamas on this and then conferring _ directly with hamas on this and then conferring back and forth with the americans, israelis and others. so it is for— americans, israelis and others. so it is for others to make that assessment of hamas. there are so nrany— assessment of hamas. there are so many different calculations at this point _ many different calculations at this point i_ many different calculations at this point. i think each day that the truce _ point. i think each day that the truce has — point. i think each day that the truce has been extended is good news in the _ truce has been extended is good news in the sense _ truce has been extended is good news in the sense that it increases the chances — in the sense that it increases the chances that we have hostages being reteased~ _ chances that we have hostages being released. but there is obviously some _ released. but there is obviously some tension in each day that goes by and _ some tension in each day that goes by and what and how hamas may be gaining _ by and what and how hamas may be gaining from that. what by and what and how hamas may be gaining from that.— by and what and how hamas may be gaining from that. what do you make ofthe gaining from that. what do you make of the two things _ gaining from that. what do you make of the two things there? _ gaining from that. what do you make of the two things there? it _ gaining from that. what do you make of the two things there? it is - of the two things there? it is possible that the family are being used as a bargaining chip between different groups as well as a bargaining chip in negotiations. the truth is bargaining chip in negotiations. ii9 truth is that we don't know. we don't have enough information. mara said, the qataris are the key negotiators here and have been working painstakingly from the 7th of october to try to work on the deal. they are sitting with lists and talking to hamas and the israelis and americans and egyptians all the time. the egyptians are also closely involved. it's a worrying and it's a possibility. we cannot rule out the possibility that they are also being held as bargaining chips between the different groups. it is not only groups. there are gangs and families. we know islamic jihad are holding some hostages. we know they pronounced one of the hostages dead, and she was then released a few days earlier. we know today's release was done jointly by islamichhad and hamas. they released videos themselves of both groups together releasing the hostages. so it's not clear to those of us who are outside exactly what is going on inside, but it is clear, as mara said, that the hostages are being held by more than two groups. so here we are in a situation where tomorrow night, as things stand, is the last night of the ceasefire. what is your assessment of the chance of this ceasefire holding? i think it will be extended, if i had to put my money on this. i think it is in all the parties' interests to prolong the ceasefire. it's likely to be prolonged at this stage until sunday, nine days from the first day of the ceasefire. there are very intense negotiations going on again with the qataris to try to do and all ordeal. with the qataris to try to do and all ordeal-— with the qataris to try to do and all ordeal. ., , :, ,, all ordeal. tell me what you think is happening _ all ordeal. tell me what you think is happening in — all ordeal. tell me what you think is happening in the _ all ordeal. tell me what you think is happening in the west - all ordeal. tell me what you think is happening in the west bank, i is happening in the west bank, because we heard of settler violence towards palestinians over there. if there are settler violence towards palestinians in the west bank, then the israelis would have to take responsibility, in a way, if that is seen as a contradiction of the ceasefire. seen as a contradiction of the ceasefire-— seen as a contradiction of the ceasefire. , ., :, . , ceasefire. the situation in the west bank is horrific. _ ceasefire. the situation in the west bank is horrific. all— ceasefire. the situation in the west bank is horrific. all eyes _ ceasefire. the situation in the west bank is horrific. all eyes are - ceasefire. the situation in the west bank is horrific. all eyes are on - bank is horrific. all eyes are on gaza and meanwhile, terrible things are happening on the west bank. it is notjust are happening on the west bank. it is not just settlers are happening on the west bank. it is notjust settlers in the west bank, it is also the army that has conducted raids. irate bank, it is also the army that has conducted raids.— bank, it is also the army that has conducted raids. we have heard that the idf may — conducted raids. we have heard that the idf may have _ conducted raids. we have heard that the idf may have gone _ conducted raids. we have heard that the idf may have gone into - conducted raids. we have heard that the idf may have gone into jenin. i the idf may have gone intojenin. there have been many arrests since the 7th of october.— the 7th of october. what are the chances of _ the 7th of october. what are the chances of the ceasefire - the 7th of october. what are the | chances of the ceasefire holding? we know the americans are very keen. a member of the us national security council said if there is a return to violence, it would have to be much more contained violence, at least on the israeli side. and antony blinken is on his way to the west bank tonight. what are the chances of the ceasefire holding? i tonight. what are the chances of the ceasefire holding?— ceasefire holding? i think the chance is that _ ceasefire holding? i think the chance is that the truce - chance is that the truce gets extended. i'm not sure i am as optimistic— extended. i'm not sure i am as optimistic as nomi bar—yaacov, but i hope _ optimistic as nomi bar—yaacov, but i hope that— optimistic as nomi bar—yaacov, but i hope that is— optimistic as nomi bar—yaacov, but i hope that is the case. i am certainly— hope that is the case. i am certainly watching. our cia director and the mossad director are both reported — and the mossad director are both reported to have arrived in doha today. _ reported to have arrived in doha today, and there are discussions about— today, and there are discussions about the — today, and there are discussions about the all for all. that would increase — about the all for all. that would increase the chances. i think you have _ increase the chances. i think you have to — increase the chances. i think you have to separate them from the settler— have to separate them from the settler violence that has been ongoing — settler violence that has been ongoing and horrific and frankly predated — ongoing and horrific and frankly predated october the 7th. settler violence — predated october the 7th. settler violence towards palestinians living in the _ violence towards palestinians living in the west bank, settlers are thugs and we _ in the west bank, settlers are thugs and we should call them as they are. i and we should call them as they are. i would _ and we should call them as they are. i would distinguish between that and some of— i would distinguish between that and some of the military actions in jenin _ some of the military actions in jenin in — some of the military actions in jenin in the northern west bank, because — jenin in the northern west bank, because the places they are going are also— because the places they are going are also places where hamas has strongholds. that is an important extinction, — strongholds. that is an important extinction, but very important that israel— extinction, but very important that israel takes action and nettie yahoo has not _ israel takes action and nettie yahoo has not done anything like what he needs— has not done anything like what he needs to _ has not done anything like what he needs to do —— benjamin netanyahu has not _ needs to do —— benjamin netanyahu has not done what he needs to do to address— has not done what he needs to do to address the — has not done what he needs to do to address the unacceptable settler violence — address the unacceptable settler violence in the west bank. thank you both very much- _ we'rejoined now from the city of holon in israel by yossi shnaider, who is the cousin of shiri — the mother of the two little boys still being held in gaza — her husband, the boys' father, yarden is also a hostage. this thank you very much forjoining us tonight. i don't know if you heard any of that, we talk about a terrible time for the family who are being held in gaza but also a terrible time for the wider family. what do you know of the whereabouts now of the four of them in gaza, the two little boys, the mother and the father that we understand as wounded. i father that we understand as wounded-— father that we understand as wounded. :, , :, _, :, wounded. i heard your conversation and i have wounded. i heard your conversation and l have to _ wounded. i heard your conversation and i have to say, _ wounded. i heard your conversation and i have to say, there _ wounded. i heard your conversation and i have to say, there is - wounded. i heard your conversation and i have to say, there is only - wounded. i heard your conversation and i have to say, there is only one| and i have to say, there is only one group _ and i have to say, there is only one group that— and i have to say, there is only one group that rule gaza politically, and security, and the name of this group _ and security, and the name of this group is _ and security, and the name of this group is hamas. i don't know any group is hamas. idon't know any other— group is hamas. i don't know any other groups. i know their names but i other groups. i know their names but i don't _ other groups. i know their names but i don't care _ other groups. i know their names but i don't care about them, because they are — i don't care about them, because they are not ruling gaza. they are not the _ they are not ruling gaza. they are not the ones who started this horrific— not the ones who started this horrific thing that started on the 7th of— horrific thing that started on the 7th of october. they are not the ones _ 7th of october. they are not the ones who— 7th of october. they are not the ones who decide to come and kill our children— ones who decide to come and kill our children and — ones who decide to come and kill our children and kidnap them. the sole responsibility is on hamas and you shouldn't— responsibility is on hamas and you shouldn't give them the satisfaction of being _ shouldn't give them the satisfaction of being released from worry about my family — of being released from worry about my family. | of being released from worry about m famil . :, :, ., of being released from worry about m famil. :, :, ,, my family. i want to ask you because elon le , my family. i want to ask you because eton levy. the _ my family. i want to ask you because elon levy, the israel— my family. i want to ask you because elon levy, the israel government - my family. i want to ask you because | elon levy, the israel government box man, said hamas had told the family they no longer have the two boys. do you know anything about this or is this simply not true? he you know anything about this or is this simply not true?— you know anything about this or is this simply not true? he had the two bo s and this simply not true? he had the two boys and shiri _ this simply not true? he had the two boys and shiri and _ this simply not true? he had the two boys and shiri and they _ this simply not true? he had the two boys and shiri and they decide - this simply not true? he had the two boys and shiri and they decide to - boys and shiri and they decide to -ive boys and shiri and they decide to give him — boys and shiri and they decide to give him away like he has some kind of pet _ give him away like he has some kind of pet to— give him away like he has some kind of pet to another organisation, just going _ of pet to another organisation, just going from — of pet to another organisation, just going from one side to another. so again. _ going from one side to another. so again. it _ going from one side to another. so again. it is — going from one side to another. so again, it is hamas from the beginning until the end that is responsible for my family and everyone _ responsible for my family and everyone taken into captivity. we are everyone taken into captivity. are seeing everyone taken into captivity. 9 are seeing on our screens now pictures of the baby. last time we saw the baby, i think the baby was less than nine months old, and i gather now ten months old and crawling. i wonder what you make of the family and children, what is ariel like? he the family and children, what is ariel like? :, , ., the family and children, what is ariel like? ., :, , ., ., ariel like? he has a four-year-old bo that ariel like? he has a four-year-old boy that needs — ariel like? he has a four-year-old boy that needs to _ ariel like? he has a four-year-old boy that needs to run _ ariel like? he has a four-year-old boy that needs to run around - ariel like? he has a four-year-old i boy that needs to run around outside towns _ boy that needs to run around outside towns go _ boy that needs to run around outside towns go to— boy that needs to run around outside towns go to kindergarten and play in parks _ towns go to kindergarten and play in parks and _ towns go to kindergarten and play in parks and play basketball or football or whatever. instead of that, _ football or whatever. instead of that, he — football or whatever. instead of that, he has been closed for the last 54 — that, he has been closed for the last 54 days in some hole in the ground — last 54 days in some hole in the ground without seeing daylight are getting _ ground without seeing daylight are getting medical care or proper food, without— getting medical care or proper food, without showering or doing anything that kids _ without showering or doing anything that kids are supposed to do it. i don't _ that kids are supposed to do it. i don't know— that kids are supposed to do it. i don't know if you remember, when there _ don't know if you remember, when there was— don't know if you remember, when there was the curfew in the covid, how difficult it was to be in your own home — how difficult it was to be in your own home for a couple of days, so think— own home for a couple of days, so think about — own home for a couple of days, so think about being 54 days underground without seeing daylight, that you _ underground without seeing daylight, that you have been kidnapped by a radical— that you have been kidnapped by a radical terror organisation. andl radical terror organisation. and i wonder, radical terror organisation. and i wonder. your — radical terror organisation. and i wonder, your cousin, _ radical terror organisation. and i wonder, your cousin, how - radical terror organisation. and i wonder, your cousin, how will i radical terror organisation. and i l wonder, your cousin, how will she cope? what sort of person as she? i understand her husband as wounded? she is a kindergarten teacher. they are very— she is a kindergarten teacher. they are very simple people. the people that live _ are very simple people. the people that live in — are very simple people. the people that live in this village, the kibbutz. _ that live in this village, the kibbutz, is a very simple person and they want— kibbutz, is a very simple person and they want to — kibbutz, is a very simple person and they want to live their life peacefully. i can tell you that on the political map they were on the left side _ the political map they were on the left side of the political map. they really _ left side of the political map. they really believed in peace with gaza, they believed in peace among the arabs— they believed in peace among the arabs and — they believed in peace among the arabs and they sent her in almost a shake _ arabs and they sent her in almost a shake for— arabs and they sent her in almost a shake for peace and what you get from _ shake for peace and what you get from the — shake for peace and what you get from the other side but weapons and knives~ _ from the other side but weapons and knives~ the — from the other side but weapons and knives. the people that came to their— knives. the people that came to their houses on saturday morning it was, _ their houses on saturday morning it was, a _ their houses on saturday morning it was, a holiday in israel, and killed. — was, a holiday in israel, and killed, rates and kidnapped everybody. killed, rates and kidnapped everybody-— killed, rates and kidnapped eve bod. . , . killed, rates and kidnapped eve bod. :, , : :, everybody. thank you very much for 'oinin: us everybody. thank you very much for joining us and _ everybody. thank you very much for joining us and l— everybody. thank you very much for joining us and i hope _ everybody. thank you very much for joining us and i hope you _ everybody. thank you very much for joining us and i hope you have - everybody. thank you very much for joining us and i hope you have good| joining us and i hope you have good news of yourfamily. joining us and i hope you have good news of your family. i joining us and i hope you have good news of your family.— news of your family. i have to say one more — news of your family. i have to say one more sentence _ news of your family. i have to say one more sentence if— news of your family. i have to say one more sentence if you - news of your family. i have to say one more sentence if you can. i l one more sentence if you can. i think— one more sentence if you can. i think that — one more sentence if you can. i think that the world should wake up. you are _ think that the world should wake up. you are always preferring to believe things _ you are always preferring to believe things you _ you are always preferring to believe things you hear from hamas, and hamas— things you hear from hamas, and hamas as — things you hear from hamas, and hamas as a — things you hear from hamas, and hamas as a terrorist organisation, instead _ hamas as a terrorist organisation, instead of— hamas as a terrorist organisation, instead of hearing from a democratic state like _ instead of hearing from a democratic state like israel. you need to investigate things before you publish — investigate things before you publish them and realise who you're dealing _ publish them and realise who you're dealing with. publish them and realise who you're dealing with-— dealing with. thank you very much for 'oinin: dealing with. thank you very much forioining us- _ dealing with. thank you very much forjoining us. thank _ dealing with. thank you very much forjoining us. thank you, - dealing with. thank you very much forjoining us. thank you, i- dealing with. thank you very much forjoining us. thank you, i am - forjoining us. thank you, i am afraid we have run right out of time, thank you very much for joining us tonight. clearing the asylum backlog is a priority for the government, and the rate at which claims are being processed has increased hugely. but that's led to a different problem, as once leave to remain is granted, the refugees need to move out of hotel accommodation, where the government has been housing them at the cost of several million pounds a day, and find somewhere to live. those who can't find somewhere to themselves are turning to already overstretched councils for help, and some end up on the streets. yasminara has this report from liverpool. it's getting colder and the wind is biting on the streets of liverpool. among the busy christmas shoppers are people sleeping rough. today, the city council activated a severe weather emergency protocol, triggering support for those living on the streets. earlier this month, shah found himself in just that situation after the 12 p.m.. ijust came out and sleeping here for five days. he was living by the main railway station and in a park. how were people towards you when you were sleeping in the tent? some of these good people, nice people, some of those, you know, like very bad people, drinkers. having fled afghanistan, he was granted refugee status after the home office accepted his well—founded fear of persecution. but it also meant he was issued with notice to quit the hotel he had been staying in and was directed to seek help from the council. i was a generalist in afghanistan and it's very serious stories i was seeing there. that's why afghanistan very dangerous for me. i can't go back there. shah spent 18 months waiting for his decision as part of a huge backlog of cases. the home office said earlier this year that the asylum system cost the uk 3 billion a year and was rising. the total asylum backlog has risen sharply over recent years, peaking at nearly 139,000 this summer. ministers have pledged to tackle the backlog and the use of hotels. let me be clear. i want to close all the hotels. i think it's completely unacceptable. it's a waste of taxpayers' money. and as quickly as we can close them, we will do. the number of staff processing applications has increased over the last two years from around 600 to 2,500 now. and the number of decisions made have risen nearly tenfold to almost 16,000 last month.
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