some palestinians imprisoned in israel have also been returned to their homes. now, as i understand it, you personally opposed the deal, but — because, on the face of it, it's working — do you think you were wrong and that the deal has been a positive? i have to say that it doesn't really matter if i supported it or was against it, because once it's been decided by the government of the state of israel, so, of course, we are all committed — the supporters and the people who were against — to make sure that the state of israel and the people in israel will get the most out of the deal and pay the least of the prices that we expected, everyone, that we should pay. i think the major price is what you said in the beginning, is the equals sign that, sadly, this deal creates even in...in the media, the world media. we are talking about babies on one side — babies, children, women, citizens — and we are comparing them to terrorists, to convicted terrorists that were trialled because of the terrorist acts they committed. so we're saying like, "oh, it's... "they will return to their homes "and they will return to their homes." no, they will return to their home, where they have been abducted. the israelis were abducted without doing anything wrong to anyone in the world. babies, children, women, adults, male, female, everyone. and they will return to their homes. and the terrorists that are being released because of this deal will return, probably, to making the world a...bad place. all right, mr rothman, you've raised certain... to make it more... to create more terrorist attacks. you've raised several points there. just i feel i should say that when you claim that the israeli release of prisoners involved convicted terrorists, it is quite plain that those being released are children and women. some indeed have been convicted of crimes in administrative courts, not the due process that would be recognised... no... ..in western courts, but some of them haven't even been convicted at all. they've just been held... ..that�*s not... ..without conviction. no, no, that's not true. well, it is true, mr rothman. no, no, that's not... i'm sorry, i'm sorry. that's not true. it's true that some of them are awaiting their trial. not for a long time, because of the process... that's just what i said, mr rothman, thank you. but... no. but—but—but they were arrested for crimes. they weren't arrested... israel never went and took babies, palestinian babies, and said, "oh, we're holding them just because we can." that's not... everyone that was held either waiting a trial or after a trial — and most of them already been trialled, and not in an administrative court, but a criminal court for terrorist attacks. and they had a lawyer and they had a case... yeah. ..and evidence was shown and they're in prison because of that. no—one from the people that hamas were holding... i want to be very clear about this. ..did something wrong. you just suggested something very important — in your view, your dislike of this deal is based on the feeling, it seems... maybe i'm wrong, but it seems you have a feeling that it will simply encourage what you call more terrorism. the fact is that the leader of your government, benjamin netanyahu... as we speak right now, benjamin netanyahu seems minded to extend the deal for a few more days. are you prepared to support him in that? again, the decision of the government was made. some ministers supported it, some ministers objected to it, but doesn't matter. everyone agrees that, once this decision was accepted — in a democratic way, in a democratic government, that's the way things work — we are all behind with the decisions of the elected government, of the state of israel and the prime minister in the ongoing fight to release the hostages and to put an end to hamas. hamas, the terrorist organisation that is acting in isis methods, needs to be eradicated. that's something very clear, everyone is committed to it, and that's the way we should work. of course, we need to make sure that we release as many abductees from the hamas, from the hamas that are holding them or the terrorists that are holding them because that everyone is happy that those people are returning to their homes. but, of course, we need to not leave the fight to eradicate hamas, to get the world a better place by making sure hamas, isis, is no more. since israel launched its offensive after october 7 and the murderous attack by hamas in southern israel, israeli military sources suggest that perhaps 5,000 hamas fighters have been killed. they also estimate that hamas can call upon, they reckon, 25,000 active fighters. so there is a very long way to go. so, in your opinion, the military offensive in gaza — is it still in its early stages? um... as you just said, i don't know... i don't know the number, the total number of hamas terrorists. butjust—just by the numbers you said, i think, of course, we... and we also know that also on the land, the gaza strip must be demilitarised. we must make sure that there are no weapons aimed, not on our forces, not on our troops, not on our people in the gaza strip. it will take time. it will take effort, as we all know. hamas used the aid they got from countries all around the world to create a place, to create tunnels under gaza, so it will be used for terror. so there are a lot of work to be done by the military... but isn't the problem...? ..until we eradicate hamas. isn't the problem, mr rothman, that it's simply not possible? you've set yourself an impossible objective. the destruction, elimination of hamas... i did not say... i did not say the word "impossible". no, you didn't. i'm saying it. i'm asking you a question. ah, 0k. sorry. is it not impossible to destroy hamas when it is so deeply woven into gaza at every level — social, religious, as well as with its military arm? hamas cannot be destroyed. it represents an idea of resistance as much as a military organisation. i think if we want to have comparison from the... ..from the past, isis was a movement that had a lot of supporters in the areas which they existed. and i think that we can say that, in some areas, the world did a good job in getting rid of isis. there are some places that it stayed, but not in the areas where the war was going... ..going forward and forcefully. and also the uk, great britain was, ithink, a major key player in eradicating the nazi ideology. the nazis were also very much inside the german society, in—in the �*30s and in the �*aos and the war changed this. yeah, international humanitarian... not only... international humanitarian law has moved on a long way since the 1930s and 1940s. so you're saying... the truth is you, your government and your military... so you're saying that... hang on, let me finish a question. i can't hear, sorry. you've killed, according to the hamas—run health ministry, more than 14,000 palestinians already, including almost 5,000 children. those numbers are set to rise because now it's so difficult to gather the numbers in gaza, many of the hospital systems are broken, and the un says there is no reason to doubt the veracity of those numbers. antony blinken, the us secretary of state, has said, "far too many palestinians have been killed." so the question is, the pressure to stop the killing is going to mount — are you going to ignore it? um... h was stuck. i'm sorry, i was stuck on the first part of your question — are you claiming that if the international humanitarian law was—was the same today... was the same in the �*aos and the �*30s as it is today, we should have learned all to speak german and live under the nazi regime, because the nazi regime could not be eradicated? if that's what you're claiming. so apparently something is wrong with the way you interpret the international humanitarian law. no, i clearly didn't say anything like that. i don't think it's true. i simply pointed out that international humanitarian law... no, so... ..was collated after the second world war, and it is quite clear about the obligation on a government and on a military to protect civilians. we just discussed the number of palestinians who have been killed... but when i said... ..and we discussed the united states saying that far too many have been killed. are you going to ignore the pressure? again, when i said that, you said that hamas cannot be destroyed, and i gave the example of the nazis. you said that the international humanitarian law had been changed since then. and i'm asking, or i'm thinking out loud, that if your proposition is true and the international humanitarian law would have stopped the world fighting the evil of nazi germany, something is probably wrong with international humanitarian law. i don't think that's the case. i know that you can continue this line of thought... please don't stop me in the middle of the sentence. i don't think your interpretation of the international humanitarian law is correct. i think international humanitarian law, i don't think... i think international humanitarian law allows in a situation when we face this kind of evil, to use the force needed to get the world a better place and eradicate hamas, as it allowed eradicating isis and as it allowed eradicating al-qaeda after 9/11 and all those terrorist organisations that are a threat to the peace of the whole world and the state of israel. yeah. let me quote to you, if i may, words from your party leader. just a few days ago, bezalel smotrich, who called on palestinians in gaza to, quote, "voluntarily emigrate." he said, "palestinians have no chance of independent economic "and diplomatic existence in such high densities "in the long term. "the only solution to end the suffering," he said, "ofjews and arabs alike, is for countries around the world "who truly want what's good for these refugees to accept them." that's breathtaking language, isn't it? do you support it? i don't know about the breathtaking, but i'm saying that you know that there are two agencies of the un that are in charge of refugees. there is one entity that dealt with all the refugees all around the world, and there is unwra, that dealt with the palestinian refugees. the only entity that keeps refugees until now for 75 years and never finds a solution for them is unwra. the other refugees from 75 years ago are already settled in other places. so in gaza, the majority of the population are refugees, according to their own definition, according to unrwa definition. so if they are refugees in gaza — not outside of gaza, in gaza, they are refugees — i think we should solve the problem of the refugees in gaza the same way... they're refugees because... please don't stop me in the middle of the sentence. please, please don't stop me in the middle of the sentence. you can have a monologue for the next ten minutes if you want, but that's not going to be an interview, is it? no, no, i'm trying, i'm trying to finish. sorry. i'm interested in that word, voluntary emigration. you basically want palestinians out of gaza, right? you call it voluntary, but when people are leaving under shellfire and under bombing with many thousands already dead, that's not voluntary. you just want them out. i am saying that since the majority of the population in gaza are refugees according to their own definition and unwra definition, i think the world and the un entities that deals with refugees need to take care of them the same way and not continue the situation of refugees living for 75 years without a solution. i don't think anyone in his right mind should support it and i think any refugee from gaza who wants a solution shouldn't be held there by unwra for political reasons in order to hurt the state of israel. i just want everybody around the world to be clear... the world is keeping... i just want to be clear what is happening. the world is keeping... 0ne cabinet member in the netanyahu government called it "rolling out the gaza nakba." nakba, of course, being the word palestinians use for what they call the catastrophe of displacement in 1948. you want another mass displacement in 2023. you want them out of gaza. again... i'm just asking you to be honest about what you want. again, i don't understand why are you calling it displacement. the people in gaza, are they refugees, yes or no? not the people who went from the north to the south, the people who lived in refugee camps in the north before the war, on october 6th, are they refugees? they're refugees who are displaced as a result of... are they refugees? if they are refugees, where did they went away from and why are they still refugees for 75 years? well, you know the answers to all of these questions well. no, ithink... i think i don't know the answer. well, if you don't know the answer... so they are displaced people. from when? since when? since when they are displaced? since october 7th, since the attack of israel on gaza now, because of the war started by hamas, or are they displaced people from �*67 orfrom �*a8? it's an interesting rhetorical device you're using. when they were displaced? i know you're a trained lawyer. no, that's not a rhetorical, that's a real question. but really, you're not answering any of my questions. and i'll ask you a few more and just let's see if you'll answer those. i'm really answering! let's see if you'll answer these questions. well, i willjust... joe biden has said in the context of what we are discussing, your plans for gaza, and you make it plain, mr netanyahu has made it plain, that israel is going to continue a long—term security presence inside gaza. joe biden has said, "reoccupation by israel "would be a very big mistake." as you ignored blinken�*s words about the civilian, the palestinian casualty count being too high, are you going to ignore biden�*s words about reoccupation being a very big mistake? i think that when we talk about what will happen in gaza, i think everyone who cares about the safety of arabs and jews alike in the area understands now. and if you, if someone did not learn from october 7th anything and wants to return to this situation again and again and again, i am... i have disagreement with this view and with these people who think that we need to return to the day before october 7th and allow our enemies to come and slaughter and murder and rape children and families in israel. i don't think that's a good idea. maybe, maybe i'm wrong, but i hope anyone with conscience do not agree to that. and if you will let the hamas or any other entity that allows for this kind of views to prosper, and educate their children to murderjews and pay salaries for people who murderjews. if you let them be in control in gaza, you will have 0ctober 7th over and over and over again. and to that i do not agree. maybe it's something with me. you live in a settler outpost in the west bank. let's talk a little bit more about the situation in the west bank, because many people in the international community, not least antonio guterres, secretary general of the un, are extremely concerned about what he's described as a situation close to boiling point. again, the statistics are important. at least 237 palestinians have been killed in the west bank since october 7th, including more than 50 children. jewish settlers have killed, we believe, at least eight palestinians since october 7th. your party... you believe? what do you mean, do i believe? no. you said, "we believe." i do not believe. you don't believe the evidence that we see in the... i don't believe a jewish settler killed any palestinian. do you want me to quote endless un reports? no, the un... the un i definitely do not believe. but the un i definitely do not believe. but, but i'm talking about settlers killing palestinians now, i do not believe. i know that, i know that palestinians in the west bank, which, of course, you will call the west bank, and i will call judea and samaria, the ancient homeland of thejewish people. but i think that palestinians, and i know that if you talk about numbers, support the massacre of october 7th in numbers even higher than the people in gaza. so when they go and conduct those kind of attacks, even now, and support those kinds of attack, even now. so apparently they are participating in terror. that's why the israeli army and... here's a few more facts for you. ..killed so many, killed so many terrorists. maybe you're not so keen on facts, but here's a few more facts for you. 15 palestinian settlements in the west bank, comprising almost 1,000 people have been closed down. now, that's according to the united nations. we also know that a special budget allocation is now being discussed in the israeli knesset, which would involve 330 million shekels of extra money for arming jewish settlements and outposts with special guards equipped with military—grade assault rifles and drones, which even the israeli police commission... in order to do what? ..has expressed concern about. i don't know about the concerns, but why do you think jews, jewish communities injudea and samaria need 300, more than 300 million shekels in order to buy cameras and fences and drones. why do they need this money? well, you're... one of your party colleagues... why? ..talked in terms of erasing one particular village in the west bank. no, no. but i'm saying, why do they need... no, this budget, this budget, do you think this budget of 330 million shekels coming to erasing a village, that what you think? or do you think if you read, if you know the facts, you said the importance of facts before, it's for fences and cameras to prevent what happened in october 7th in south israel, to prevent it from happening... it's also for military... please, don't stop me in the middle of a sentence, please. to prevent, to prevent the people, to say the animals is a compliment. but let's use the animals, who did what they did in october 7th in the south of israel, to do it to my family, to my wife, to my children, to my neighbours, to my friends, to my neighbours... to the neighbouring communities. maybe this is for that, because you know, arming communities, that's what prevented massacre in some communities in the south. so maybe it's a good idea to arm communities of peaceful citizens against those people who support the attack of october 7th. more than 80% of the palestinian injudea and samaria, my palestinian neighbours, they support those kind of acts. so maybe i need to defend myself. i hope it's ok with you. a final thought for you, mr rothman. your party has talked about a desire to see the number ofjewish settlers in the west bank doubled. and you have had a significant role and influence on the netanyahu government, your party's part of the ruling coalition. do you think your window of political opportunity to get this vision of israel and its expanded settlements, that you have that window of opportunity to achieve what you want to achieve, is closing? if netanyahu goes, your dream, your vision of israel goes too, doesn't it? i don't understand the connection with netanyahu because the population injudea and samaria had grown over the years. i don't even think that under netanyahu in a higher percentage than with other prime ministers, because the majority of the public in israel do not buy the lies from across the sea. and they know that the only way we can keep ourselves secure is by presence on the ground and not allowing the supporters of hamas or isis to come and kill us all. so if we want to survive as a country, if we want to survive as the homeland of the jewish people, we need to sit in the homeland of thejewish people and not allow foreign, foreign, foreign interference, that do not really understand the situation on the ground. allow the murderers from october 7th to kill us again. simcha rothman, i thank you, but we are out of time. thanks for being on hardtalk. thank you. thank you very much. hello. it's cold out there. it's going to stay cold for the rest of the week into the weekend and probably into next week, too. in fact, there's no sign of any mild weather returning. now, how about tuesday itself? 0bviously cold, bright, if not sunny for many of us. now, here's the satellite picture. here's all that drizzly, cloudy weather that many of us experienced on monday. it's moving away towards the east and behind it, the skies are clearing. so clear skies through the early hours and into tuesday morning. and it will have been a pretty chilly start to tuesday, with those temperatures around freezing or below in the north and only around three or four degrees across central england and the south, too. but as i say, lots of sunshine around and at the very least, a bright start. now, these northerly winds are pretty cold. they're also pushing in some wintry showers, particularly to the scottish hills. some of these showers might be clipping the north—east of england. now, let's have a look at the highs, if you can call them that. around four degrees in glasgow, seven in liverpool will match that in norwich and in the southwest there — around nine degrees celsius. and then tuesday evening into wednesday, this cold front will be moving southwards across the uk from north to south. so introducing slightly colder air, and also the chance of one or two wintry showers once again. so wednesday, most likely those wintry showers occurring in the north of the country, maybe clipping the northeast, and also some areas a little bit further south. showers, i think, in the south—west will be mostly of rain. again, a lot of sunshine around on wednesday and it's a cold day, in fact, temperatures really struggling in the north. this is more like january, really. so two degrees in glasgow, around about five or six degrees in the south of the country. and then on thursday we think this area of low pressure, this weather front, will stay just to the south of us where it might graze the very far south of the country. but i think, for most of us, it's a case of dry weather. but of course, it's staying cold. this is what we call the anomaly map. so the blue colour indicates temperatures below average, and then you've got above average values there for portugal and spain, just iberia, really, and maybe parts of the mediterranean. so much of the continent staying cold. here's the outlook for the days ahead and into the weekend. you can see single figure temperatures in some places. really struggling to stay much above freezing, so wrap up warmly. bye—bye. live from london, this is bbc news. a further 20 israeli women and children held hostage in gaza are expected to be released over the next two days. we'll be seeing new images of the scale of destruction in gaza, as families try to return to what's left of their homes. a diplomatic row has broken out over the parthenon sculptures, as rishi sunak cancels a meeting with the greek prime minister. and scientists study a tiny sample of rock and dust taken from an asteroid, in hopes it will provide more insight into how water and life came to earth. hello and welcome to the programme. i'm sally bundock. american officials say a further 20 israeli women and children held hostage in gaza are expected to be released over the next two days after a deal was struck to extend a temporary ceasefire. the latest group of nine children and two women was freed by hamas late in the evening. the israelis were flown by helicopter to a hospital in tel aviv. in return, israel released 33 palestinians — most of them teenagers — from its prisons. a bus carrying the newly released palestinian prisoners reportedly arrived in ramallah, in the west bank. the un has used the lull in fighting to increase urgent aid deliveries to gazans but has warned the consignments are a drop in the ocean. though more aid lorries are bringing supplies, they aren't carrying the winter clothing particularly needed for children. this is what a spokesperson for the israel defense forces
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