to weather we see rain off the atlantic? there is a question about sunday's weather. we could see some rain on sunday but it could be much slower to move in and we might stay dry for most of sunday, still hanging on a bit of sunshine. thanks, chris. and that's bbc news at ten. there's more analysis of the day's main stories on newsnight with victoria derbyshire which is just getting under way on bbc two. the news continues here on bbc one, as now it's time to join our colleagues across the nations and regions for the news where you are, but from the ten team, it's goodnight. the row between the prime minister, his home secretary and the country's most senior police officer over the pro—palestinian march on saturday ramps up dramatically tonight. suella braverman accuses the met police of "playing favourites with protestors". the labour leader accuses the government of "picking a fight with the police" and calls on the pm to hold suella braverman "accountable". former deputy mayor for policing in london stephen greenhalgh — now a conservative peer — tells us a line's been crossed. also tonight — as the us warns that israel can't run gaza, and hamas can't run gaza, what comes after this battle ends? israel's ambassador to the uk is here, as is the liberal democrats�* foreign affairs spokesman, british palestinian layla moran, who is calling for a "humanitarian ceasefire". the war of words between the prime minister and his home secretary on one side, and the metropolitan police commissioner on the other, has been escalating today, and tonight the home secretary suella braveman has taken it still further, accusing the met police of double standards over the way they police different protests. earlier in the day, rishi sunak said it was hisjob to hold sir mark "accountable" and he called him in today, we're told, to "seek further assurances that the met�*s approach is robust and ensure remembrance events will not be affected". the planned route for the london march goes from hyde park — about a mile from the cenotaph — to the us embassy in vauxhall, south of the thames and starts an hour after the two minute silence. nick's here. bring us up to date. the atmosphere had appeared to be carriaging down earlier and as you said this intervention by suella braverman says suella braverman accuses met police of double standards over protest, and as you say they are picking up on some words in an article she has written for the times in which she says the police from playing favourites with protesters. which know the home secretary is not happy the march is going ahead on saturday because it is armistice day, but she begins this article by saying the riling to protest in public is a conner stone of democracy, then suella braverman says the law as it stands makes it clear that marches should almost always be permitted, but, then suella braverman goes on the talk about how these marches who have been marching on successive saturdays in london, she describes them as hate marches and she says they intend to use the day to parade through london as yet another show of strength as she describes it. she is saying that the law as it is now, hinting she would like to change it, that how we have to work with, she says for that to work the only way you can do this is handle these protests even handedly and then this is what she says, unfortunately, there is a perception that senior police officers play favourites when it comes to protesters during covid, while was it at that lockdown objectors were given no quarter by public order police yet black lives matters were able to break rules and with officers taking the knee. she talk about how right—wing protesters who engage in aggression are rightly met with a centre response, and then turning to today, yet pro—palestinian mobs, she says, displaying almost identical behaviour are largely ignored, so she is accusing the police of ignoring this behaviour, everyone when clearly breaking the law. law. she as i have spoken to serving an former police officers who have noted this double standard. now obviously the home secretary has oversight of the police, but a fundamental tenet of british policing is the operational independence of police. why is the home secretary doing this? itruieiiii independence of police. why is the home secretary doing this? well it's a convention — home secretary doing this? well it's a convention that _ home secretary doing this? well it's a convention that when _ home secretary doing this? well it's a convention that when a _ home secretary doing this? well it's a convention that when a cabinet - a convention that when a cabinet minister writes an article, gives a speech it is cleared through downing street. so we must assume that that has happened in this case. which means that either rishi sunak agrees with this, or he is tolerating it. but i do have the distinct impression it looks like it may well be that the prime minister's patience is running out with suella braverman, so i was in the gallery, the press gallery of the house of commons yesterday, for the speeches in response to the king's speech. and at one point keir starmer did a very strong attack on suella braverman, and it wasn't a sort of a fiery attack, it was saying i was the former dpp this is not how a home secretary should behave. the home secretary should behave. the home secretary should behave. the home secretary was sitting next to the prime minister, if the leader of the prime minister, if the leader of the opposition attacks a cabinet minister and they are next to the prime minister you would peck the prime minister you would peck the prime minister you would peck the prime minister to turn to that cabinet minister, maybe put an arm round them, look at them. the prime ministerjust round them, look at them. the prime minister just looked round them, look at them. the prime ministerjust looked right ahead. minister just looked right ahead. did ministerjust looked right ahead. did not acknowledge the presence of the home secretary next to him. how. the home secretary next to him. now, the home secretary next to him. now, the commissioner _ the home secretary next to him. now, the commissioner of _ the home secretary next to him. now, the commissioner of the _ the home secretary next to him. now, the commissioner of the met has said he currently has no lawful basis to ban the march on saturday. so what is the law? ~ , ., ., is the law? well it is important to sa that is the law? well it is important to say that the _ is the law? well it is important to say that the prime _ is the law? well it is important to say that the prime minister - is the law? well it is important to say that the prime minister as - say that the prime minister as you were saying summoned the met commissioner to come undo downing street today and the atmosphere seemed to be better this morning rishi sunak was talking about holding the met to account after the commissionerjudged that he commissioner judged that he currently commissionerjudged that he currently has no lawful basis to ban the pro lynn march on saturday which is on armistice day, the prime minister welcomed that so you thought it was a different atmosphere, on the law, what mark rowley is saying is the law allows him to do one thing and not another. he cannot ban a static gathering of people, whatever he decides, there is going to be a protest, but the commissioner said that moving marches can be banned in extreme case, so let's look at this piece of law and its paragraph four of section 13 of the public order act of 1986 and the commissioner said this does allow for marches or moving protests to be banned if the following conditions are met. there is intelligence which suggests there will be a real threat of disorder and there is no other way for police to manage the event. now, the commissioner, that is what it says, now, the commissioner said that the intelligence for this weekend suggests those conditions have, those two have not been met, but, he said that if the intelligence picture change, and the threshold is met, he would approach the home secretary who could then allow him to ban a moving march. so a cautious statement by the commissioner which prompted the prime minister to say this. this is a decision that the metropolitan police commissioner has made, and he has said that he can ensure that we safeguard remembrance for the country this weekend, as well as keep the public safe, now my job is to hold him accountable for that and we have asked the police for information how that will happen. for information how that will ha en. . for information how that will ha en, ., , ., , for information how that will hauen. ., , ., for information how that will hauen. ., ,., , ., for information how that will hauen. ., , ., , ., ., for information how that will hauen. ., ,., , ., ., ,y happen. that prompted a post on x by keir starmer- — happen. that prompted a post on x by keir starmer. we _ happen. that prompted a post on x by keir starmer. we can _ happen. that prompted a post on x by keir starmer. we can see _ happen. that prompted a post on x by keir starmer. we can see that, - keir starmer. we can see that, remembrance events must be respected. then he says this, the person, the pm needs to hold accountable is his home secretary, picking a fight with police instead of that the reason why the prime minister is doing all of this, is thank you for talking to us, first of all your reaction to this dramatic intervention from suella braverman tonight.— braverman tonight. well, i am surrised braverman tonight. well, i am surprised this _ braverman tonight. well, i am surprised this is _ braverman tonight. well, i am surprised this is playing - braverman tonight. well, i am surprised this is playing out. braverman tonight. well, i am surprised this is playing out in| braverman tonight. well, i am i surprised this is playing out in the media, in my four years of working alongside the met commissioner and senior met officers, sir mark roly was assistant commissioner in charge of public order police when i was deputy mayor, this is the kind of thing you would have a meeting and seek reassurances, that is what the mayor would have wanted and i assume mayor would have wanted and i assume mayor khan has asked for that. that is reasonable. to make these statements, that indicate a bias on behalf of a police officer is not in the spirit of the legislation, not only the legislation nick outlined but the order is clear, you enshrine the operation of the police. has suella braverman _ the operation of the police. has suella braverman crossed a line? yes, i don't think you should be making the statements in public, she should have had a private meeting, to, it is right for the home secretary to have concern, but they should not be playing nowt media, any relationship you are holding the service and the met to account, supporting and challenging the met, that has to be done the basis of trust, you call in the chief, you say why you are concerned, and you do that in private, you don't play this out in the media.— do that in private, you don't play this out in the media. rishi sunak and sir mark— this out in the media. rishi sunak and sir mark rowley _ this out in the media. rishi sunak and sir mark rowley had - this out in the media. rishi sunak and sir mark rowley had a - this out in the media. rishi sunakj and sir mark rowley had a private meeting today, hours later suella braverman writes this piece for the times which is the front—page of the times which is the front—page of the times tonight, essentially accusing the metropolitan police of double standards, you heard nick explain... i heard that. standards, you heard nick explain... i heard that-— i heard that. rather more lenient she claims _ i heard that. rather more lenient she claims towards _ i heard that. rather more lenient she claims towards black - i heard that. rather more lenient she claims towards black lives i she claims towards black lives matter protester, for example i don't think that is a reasonable way for the home secretary to behave. i work with alex chalk, a justice secretary, we were councillors together. alex was clear, he understood that the law, he understood that the law, he understood that the law, he understood that it was the commissioner's decision, and he is right that he might have some concerns but they are aired in private your don't play it out in media. ~ , , , ., private your don't play it out in media— i i private your don't play it out in - mtedia-— i don't media. why is she doing it? i don't know. media. why is she doing it? i don't know why — media. why is she doing it? i don't know- why do _ media. why is she doing it? i don't know. why do you _ media. why is she doing it? i don't know. why do you think? - media. why is she doing it? i don't know. why do you think? suella i know. why do you think? suella itraverman _ know. why do you think? suella braverman is _ know. why do you think? suella braverman is the _ know. why do you think? suella braverman is the home - know. why do you think? suella i braverman is the home secretary, know. why do you think? suella - braverman is the home secretary, she has got, he is going to be heard, the media are interesting in what he she has to say i wouldn't have done that. ~ , ., ,, ~' she has to say i wouldn't have done that. ~ , ., ,, , she has to say i wouldn't have done that. ~ , «a , she has to say i wouldn't have done that. ~ , ., «a , ., that. why do you think she is doing it? i'm not — that. why do you think she is doing it? i'm not suella _ that. why do you think she is doing it? i'm not suella braverman, - that. why do you think she is doing it? i'm not suella braverman, youl it? i'm not suella braverman, you have asked _ it? i'm not suella braverman, you have asked me _ it? i'm not suella braverman, you have asked me on _ it? i'm not suella braverman, you have asked me on the _ it? i'm not suella braverman, youj have asked me on the programme it? i'm not suella braverman, you i have asked me on the programme to say a ha what i think but she is playing it out in a public way, it is not a way of billing trust and confidence, or building a relationship with the leadership of the largest police service in the country. d0 the largest police service in the count . ,, ~ the largest police service in the count . i. ~ , the largest police service in the count . ~ , , , country. do you think this signifies the end of operational— country. do you think this signifies l the end of operational independence for the police? ila. the end of operational independence for the police?— for the police? no. no. this is 'ust a common — for the police? no. no. this is 'ust a common piece i for the police? no. no. this is 'ust a common piece that i for the police? no. no. this is 'ust a common piece that he i for the police? no. no. this is 'ust a common piece that he will b a common piece that he will tomorrow's chip paper. you a common piece that he will tomorrow's chip paper. you say that, she is the home _ tomorrow's chip paper. you say that, she is the home secretary, _ tomorrow's chip paper. you say that, she is the home secretary, it - tomorrow's chip paper. you say that, she is the home secretary, it is - tomorrow's chip paper. you say that, she is the home secretary, it is not l she is the home secretary, it is not just a comment piece— just a comment piece home secretaries _ just a comment piece home secretaries come _ just a comment piece home secretaries come and - just a comment piece home secretaries come and go, i just a comment piece home l secretaries come and go, the just a comment piece home - secretaries come and go, the law is the law, this is one thing, she made a mistake, that is my advice to her, as a fellow conservative, have the row in private, don't do this in, through the media. i row in private, don't do this in, through the media.— row in private, don't do this in, through the media. i don't want to ut words through the media. i don't want to put words into _ through the media. i don't want to put words into your _ through the media. i don't want to put words into your mouth. - through the media. i don't want to put words into your mouth. we i through the media. i don't want to | put words into your mouth. we had through the media. i don't want to i put words into your mouth. we had a former downing street official, a man called colin bloom who used to be i man called colin bloom who used to be ~ ., man called colin bloom who used to be ~' ., ., ., , man called colin bloom who used to be ~' ., ., .,, ., be i know colin, he was faith minister in _ be i know colin, he was faith minister in in _ be i know colin, he was faith minister in in government. l be i know colin, he was faith minister in in government. i | be i know colin, he was faith i minister in in government. i know him very well indeed. this minister in in government. i know him very well indeed.— him very well indeed. this is what he said on — him very well indeed. this is what he said on monday _ him very well indeed. this is what he said on monday night. - him very well indeed. this is what he said on monday night. he i him very well indeed. this is what he said on monday night. he said| he said on monday night. he said suella braverman seems to be goading the prime minister to sack her, so she can go ahead and launch her own leadership campaign. meii she can go ahead and launch her own leadership campaign.— leadership campaign. well that is for colin to _ leadership campaign. well that is for colin to say _ leadership campaign. well that is for colin to say but _ leadership campaign. well that is for colin to say but i _ leadership campaign. well that is for colin to say but i couldn't i for colin to say but i couldn't possibly comment.— for colin to say but i couldn't possibly comment. what is your ersonal possibly comment. what is your personal view? _ possibly comment. what is your personalview? i— possibly comment. what is your personal view? i don't _ possibly comment. what is your personal view? i don't have i possibly comment. what is your personal view? i don't have a i personal view? i don't have a personal— personal view? i don't have a personal view, _ personal view? i don't have a personalview, i— personal view? i don't have a personal view, i am - personal view? i don't have a personalview, i am not- personal view? i don't have a i personal view, i am not interested in what suella braverman wants to do, i am in what suella braverman wants to do, iam interested in what in what suella braverman wants to do, i am interested in what with is right. you have these rows in private not public.— the us secretary of state antony blinken said at the g7 today that gaza "cannot continue to be run by hamas" and "israel cannot occupy gaza" — although he said "a transition period might be necessary". diplomats, politicians and leaders appear to be turning their attention to what comes after the war in gaza, assuming israeli troops can elimiate hamas militarily as is their stated aim. how close is israel to achieving that? here's mark. over the past couple of days, israeli troops have been pushing into gaza city. these images captured on the coast road show a move northwards by one battalion. on the map, that advance is around here. and you can see the darker blue showing ground gained elsewhere. to the north, there has been a push southwards by another unit, into the shati camp area. hamas has released videos of its attempts to slow these advances over the past week. in one, remarkably, an anti—tank shell is actually placed onto a moving tank. they fire, then slip back into their tunnels. a few things are notable about the videos. firstly, the great majority cut or freeze video at the moment of impact. they don't show knocked out israeli vehicles. secondly, it is evident that hamas weapons teams are operating from civilian areas, often wearing civilian clothes. so, the resistance to israel's advance is having a limited effect and also exacerbating the intense danger to civilians from israeli bombardments. and whereas some experts have predicted hundreds of israeli soldiers would die taking gaza city, the total killed so far is in the low 30s. the battle is far from over, the main force of hamas needs still to be dismantled, but so far, considering the extreme complexity of the environment, and the underground infrastructure, and the remarkable amounts of anti—tank weapons of some quality, that have seeped somehow from russia, down through iranian channels to hamas, this has been rather successful management of combat operations so far. but as he said, it is far from over, and this advance has already claimed thousands of palestinian lives. at gaza's three key hospitals, indonesian, al-quds, and shifa, there have been israeli strikes right up almost to the doors. we fear they are coming closer to shifa hospital, and it is more that we... we had many nights where they were bombing a lot of, let me say, of the neighbourhoods near the hospital. so, the main feeling is that we are preparing ourselves for the moment where they are going to get into the shifa hospital. this video from the al-quds hospital shows why, as of today, all routes in and out are now considered unsafe. how israel will take these hospitals without enormous loss of life is the next big military and humanitarian quandary of this campaign. possibly pauses will be used to allow evacuation. in recent days, thousands of people have taken advantage of local truces to leave gaza city, moving through israeli lines to the south. israel now says that the civilian population north of its wadi gaza evacuation line is only 100,000, less than one tenth of its prewar total. some humanitarian groups think it is higher than that, but either way, the great majority have gone south, adding to the humanitarian crisis there. so, what can be done to alleviate the situation? the united arab emirates have said it is flying in an emergency hospital, but its capacity is a fraction, say, of shifa hospital's. the flow of aid trucks has picked up somewhat, with 96 getting through yesterday, but it is still well below what people need. israel knows that america and other allies have finite patience for this offensive. it could snap if there is a disaster at the shifa hospital. and even if the israeli military succeed in capturing those sensitive sites and northern gaza as a whole, the question will remain about the south, where most of the population, including presumably thousands of hamas members, have now gone. let's speak to israel's ambassador to the uk, tzipi hotovely. thank you very much for being with us this evening. it is a month and one day since hamas killed 11100 israelis and took around 240 other people hostage. i want to ask you, how you think that has changed your country. i how you think that has changed your count . ~ ., , country. i think nothing will be the same after — country. i think nothing will be the same after the _ country. i think nothing will be the same after the 7th _ country. i think nothing will be the same after the 7th of _ country. i think nothing will be the same after the 7th of october i country. i think nothing will be the same after the 7th of october in i same after the 7th of october in israel. everyone understands it is a watershed moment in our life as a country. all of our security paradigms needs to shift and change. we assume that a terror organisation is something you can live next you —— next to. this was shattered in the most barbaric, sad way. i know you have seen the visuals that came from hamas go pro cameras, the fact they documented their atrocities. everyone in israel today is traumatised. we understand that in order to live life as a normal country, as we want to live, because israelis love freedom and love their democratic happy country, we must make sure that hamas will be dismantled of all its capabilities, no matter how long it takes. i am responding to your to mark�*s piece. it is going to take a while. everyone needs to prepare themselves.— everyone needs to prepare themselves. ., . ., ., , themselves. how close or otherwise are used to — themselves. how close or otherwise are used to achieving _ themselves. how close or otherwise are used to achieving that? - themselves. how close or otherwise are used to achieving that? just i themselves. how close or otherwise are used to achieving that? just to l are used to achieving that? just to rive ou are used to achieving that? just to oive ou a are used to achieving that? just to give you a little — are used to achieving that? just to give you a little bit _ are used to achieving that? just to give you a little bit of— are used to achieving that? just to give you a little bit of perspective | give you a little bit of perspective from international examples, many people compare that to the coalition together with the british and american troops for fighting isis in mosul. just to give a perspective, muscle did not have an underground terror city, just like hamas have built, these 300 kilometres that is under 40 kilometres of a small gaza strip. underneath there is this whole infrastructure that basically comes out from private residences, from schools, from amusement parks. they are launching their rockets from amusement parks so they can make sure their children will be their human shield. this is part of their human shield. this is part of the problem. i'd battle it took the us and iraqi forces nine months. are you suggesting it is going to take that long? i am definitely saying this is much more complex than muscle. you need to understand that in order to do that, when israel is doing its best to dismantle this terror city of gaza, we need time and we need the international community to respect the fact that there are no magics here. we need there are no magics here. we need the time to do our work, and... if we want to accomplish the mission, just like it happened in the past where we started a military operation and we left in the middle, we ended up with hamas rebuilding its power. we have the population in gaza that is suffering and we have israeli people under threat. we do not want that reality. $5 israeli people under threat. we do not want that reality.— israeli people under threat. we do not want that reality. as mark said, america and _ not want that reality. as mark said, america and other _ not want that reality. as mark said, america and other allies _ not want that reality. as mark said, america and other allies have i not want that reality. as mark said, america and other allies have finitej america and other allies have finite patients with the offensive, not least because so many palestinians have been killed. can you take, for example, the shifa hospital, a hospitalfull example, the shifa hospital, a hospital full of patients, which israel says has essentially a hamas base underneath, without killing those patients and losing international support? that those patients and losing international support? that is a ve oood international support? that is a very good question. _ international support? that is a very good question. as i international support? that is a very good question. as you i international support? that is a i very good question. as you know, for the last month, almost every reporter reported that shifa hospital and other hospitals as a military base, but actually the hamas headquarters. i want to make sure that people understand what it means. it is notjust that underneath shifa hospital there is a terror base, this is not the case. the cases the hospital itself, with its words, is used as a military unit. you can walk into a hospital as if it looks like a hospital, but is military units that turn out the hospital to become a military target that israel can, according to international law, target tomorrow. why are we not doing it? for a month, we know that, we could have done it from day one. the reason israel is not doing that is because we, as diplomats, we get the very tough mission to find alternative place for them to evacuate, all those patients there. israel is now for the last month working with international partners to make sure there is an easy way to evacuate the people that are in the hospitals. look how much israel is being careful here with human life. everyone knows that they are using all the civil facilities in order to turn them into military places where they actually fire rockets as part of the military machine. you will note that people _ of the military machine. you will note that people in _ of the military machine. you will note that people in gaza i of the military machine. you will note that people in gaza do i of the military machine. you will note that people in gaza do notl note that people in gaza do not believe israel is being careful with human life because so many palestinians have been killed, innocent civilians, including many children. , ., ., , children. first of all, every loss of life is something _ children. first of all, every loss of life is something we i children. first of all, every loss of life is something we do i children. first of all, every loss of life is something we do not i children. first of all, every loss i of life is something we do not want. we do not want any loss of life. any loss of life is a tragedy. but we need to make sure that hamas will be accountable for this loss of life. everything happened because hamas attacked israel on the 7th of october in the most barbaric and brutal way. the fact that people get killed in their homes, as i said, children were killed with their mickey mouse pyjamas, they woke up in the morning, the terrorists were turning their guns into their heads. you are the one who knows about the children that saw their parents being executed in front of their eyes. this is the reason we are doing it. we need to defend them. there were over 5.5 million germans that got killed in the war and 500,000 brits. do you think it is fair to say that britain was fighting the wrong world because more germans got killed? of course not. it is notjustified to check targets according to the numbers. you need to check whether we are targeting civilians are targeting military targets. this is what israel is doing, targeting only military targets. they are doing the opposite. military targets. they are doing the o- oosite. ., ~' ,, military targets. they are doing the ouosite. ., ~' , military targets. they are doing the o- oosite. ., ~' ,, , . military targets. they are doing the o- oosite. ., ,, , . ., ,, opposite. thank you very much. thank ou for opposite. thank you very much. thank you for talking — opposite. thank you very much. thank you for talking to _ opposite. thank you very much. thank you for talking to our— opposite. thank you very much. thank you for talking to our audience i you for talking to our audience tonight. let's speak to the liberal democrat's foreign affairs spokesperson, layla moran, whose mother is palestinian, and members of herfamily are in gaza and had been sheltering in a church in northern gaza with dozens of other people after an israeli missile hit their home. are they still in the north? they are still there. _ are they still in the north? they are still there. alive. _ are they still in the north? they are still there. alive. that i are they still in the north? they are still there. alive. that is i are still there. alive. that is something. and it is worth seeing one of the reasons that i am able to say that is because my family are primarily from the west bank, so not as many of us there. i know families who are from gaza, whole families from gaza that are in the uk, they have lost 50, 60 members of their family. i am lucky at this point to be able to stay alive, but they are having one meal a day, they consider themselves lucky. they about have water. so many people that they are in touch with have nothing. they are sleeping on the concrete outside. they are sharing toilets, 40, 50,000 people. i think the human devastation of what we are now seeing is... i cannot tell you. what i am seeing is... i cannot tell you. what iam beginning seeing is... i cannot tell you. what i am beginning to worry about, victoria, is that i worried most about bombs i think in the first few weeks, i am concerned that they are now going to run out of food and water. �* ., , , , ., ., water. and that is why you and the liberal democrats _ water. and that is why you and the liberal democrats are _ water. and that is why you and the liberal democrats are calling i water. and that is why you and the liberal democrats are calling for l liberal democrats are calling for what you call a humanitarian ceasefire. what you call a humanitarian ceasefire-— what you call a humanitarian ceasefire. ~ ., . ., , ceasefire. we need to change this. i am herl ceasefire. we need to change this. i am hugely critical— ceasefire. we need to change this. i am hugely critical of— ceasefire. we need to change this. i am hugely critical of those - ceasefire. we need to change this. i am hugely critical of those who i am hugely critical of those who say... because i agree we have to get to a different, what happens after ceasefire. i have spoken before about two states, i have spoken about security and dignity, and that applies as much to the people in palestine as it does to the people in israel. we grieve, all of us. i hope one day we will be able to grieve together. but where i am critical of those who call for a pauseis am critical of those who call for a pause is what i cannot accept is what is happening now is ok. it is not ok. my family are not legitimate collateral damage. and we talk about the second world war and the blitz, i would point out that the rules by which we now conduct these things were created after that because that was a moment where we said, we don't want that any more.— want that any more. know that, if there was a _ want that any more. know that, if there was a ceasefire, _ want that any more. know that, if there was a ceasefire, hamas i want that any more. know that, if i there was a ceasefire, hamas would not abide by that. it would mean israel, israelis essentially waiting to be attacked again by hamas. you saw the interview with the hamas official last week where he said we will do it again and again. i absolutely do. of course i want them gone. let's be very clear. e ceasefire would not... gone. let's be very clear. el ceasefire would not... there gone. let's be very clear. e i ceasefire would not... there have been times _ ceasefire would not... there have been times in _ ceasefire would not... there have been times in the _ ceasefire would not... there have been times in the past _ ceasefire would not... there have been times in the past where i ceasefire would not... there have| been times in the past where they have managed to negotiate with them, with a sort of thing. he ceasefire with a sort of thing. he ceasefire with hamas in 2014 was an example. policies became ceasefires. the thing is, what we need to understand as it needs to be binding on hamas as it needs to be binding on hamas as much as it is on the israeli army. as much as it is on the israeli arm . . ., , , ., as much as it is on the israeli arm . ~ ., , , ., army. would it be binding on them? it would have _ army. would it be binding on them? it would have to _ army. would it be binding on them? it would have to be. _ army. would it be binding on them? it would have to be. they _ army. would it be binding on them? it would have to be. they are i it would have to be. they are committed — it would have to be. they are committed to _ it would have to be. they are committed to the _ it would have to be. they arej committed to the destruction it would have to be. they are i committed to the destruction of israel. ~ ., ., committed to the destruction of israel. . ., ., , , ., israel. we have heard ministers who are now suspended _ israel. we have heard ministers who are now suspended saying _ israel. we have heard ministers who are now suspended saying they i israel. we have heard ministers who are now suspended saying they want to drop nuclear bombs on gaza. the rhetoric has gone so far to the extremes. thejob of rhetoric has gone so far to the extremes. the job of the international community, victoria, international community, victoria, in my view, when others lose their heads,is in my view, when others lose their heads, is to be the grown—ups in the room, to find another path. where i disagree with the ambassador is that the only way through this is militarily. there has to be a political solution. humanitarian ceasefire is the beginning of that process. we have to start now and we have to understand that if we do not start now with that, then we are only going to end up where we have been over and over and over again for generations. i been over and over and over again for generations-— for generations. i want to ask you about rhetoric, _ for generations. i want to ask you about rhetoric, in _ for generations. i want to ask you about rhetoric, in particular - for generations. i want to ask you about rhetoric, in particular the l about rhetoric, in particular the home secretary's rhetoric. she appears to be ratcheting up her language when it comes to what she feels about the metropolitan police and the way it polices marches. she says, "i do not believe that these marches, either the one we are going to see for saturday, are merely a cry for help for gaza." she says, they are not expression or primacy by certain groups, particularly islamists, of the kind we are more used to seeing in northern ireland. what do you say to the home secretary? i what do you say to the home secretary?— what do you say to the home secretary? what do you say to the home secreta ? , ., ., ., secretary? i spoke about how we are aurievin. i secretary? i spoke about how we are grieving- i am _ secretary? i spoke about how we are grieving. i am really _ secretary? i spoke about how we are grieving. i am really struck _ secretary? i spoke about how we are grieving. i am really struck by - secretary? i spoke about how we are grieving. i am really struck by how. grieving. i am really struck by how many of my constituents are writing in in their desperation and looking at what has unfolded. and wanting to find a way to express that. to suggest that every single person on a march like that, which is not being held on remembrance sunday itself, it is important to keep reminding people of that, are somehow islamists, and lumping them all in quite candid language, i would say, i think it is irresponsible. what i would like to see instead, and perhaps the prime minister could lead it, on oxford last sunday we had an event where we pulled our community together, quite purposefully, and it wouldn't have worked otherwise. where the president of the local synagogue first, then a representative from the muslim community, then political leaders from across the political spectrum, bringing people together to show that you do not have to have divisive politics like this. suella braverman, i am afraid to say, is stoking division, and i think she should be ashamed of herself. thank ou ve should be ashamed of herself. thank you very much _ should be ashamed of herself. thank you very much for — should be ashamed of herself. thank you very much for talking _ should be ashamed of herself. thank you very much for talking to - should be ashamed of herself. thank you very much for talking to our - you very much for talking to our audience tonight. for the last year, newsnight has been investigating allegations of a "mafia—like" culture at one of the biggest hospital trusts in england. university hospitals birmingham has been under intense scrutiny after medics told us whistle—blowers were being punished by management for raising patient safety issues. overseeing the trust for much of the time in question was its chair — the former labour home secretary jacqui smith. while many have questioned the actions of the then uhb chief executive david rosser — who has since retired from the nhs — as this newsnight investigation reveals, jacqui smith stood by him despite official censure. david grossman has more. reporter: how embarrassing is this for you? _ home secretary, are you going to resign? much has happened to jacqui smith since she resigned as home secretary over her expenses. jacqui smith's house here in redditch is classed as her second home, for which she's claimed £116,000 of allowances. i accept the committee's conclusions and i therefore apologise to the house. jacqui, just give us a few words on how you're feeling tonight . following her defeat in the 2010 general election... come in to the gb news pub. ..jacqui smith reinvented herself as a media personality and political commentator. jacqui, welcome to talking pints. and not afraid to speak her mind. don't have a go at me, michelle. i'm not having a go at you. yes, you are. i'mjust saying... that clearly wasn't the case. ..make it more difficult. oh, isabel, shut up. excuse me. hang on. hang on, hang on, hang on. but in 2013, she took on another, perhaps more consequentialjob. good morning, everybody. my name is jacqui smith. i'm the chair of university hospitals, birmingham nhs trust. as chair of one of england's biggest and worst performing trusts, she appointed david rosser as chief executive. an official nhs review of the trust he was in charge of heard reports of a long standing bullying and toxic environment. if senior management can't run a hospital properly and don't want to listen to feedback about patient safety issues, then who suffers in the end? it's the patients. i and other consultants have raised concerns about patient safety, and we realised if you do, that you will get punished, quite quickly and quite harshly. they were trying, as they did - with other colleagues, to completely sort of ruin your career. in 2017, mr rosser was instrumental in the wrongful dismissal from uhb of eye surgeon tristan reuser. in his judgment of the case, employmentjudge robin broughton was coruscating. dr rosser was not sufficiently independent. there is a strong suspicion of bias, given his approval of the exclusion on grounds he ought to have known were false. not only did mr rosser wrongfully dismiss the eye surgeon, but he also referred him for investigation by the general medical council. while the gmc found there were grounds for a referral, they said that referral contained a number of material inaccuracies that suggest that either dr rosser was deliberately misleading the gmc, or at best that he had failed to give the matter anything like the level of care and attention required. not only did the gmc not take any action against the eye surgeon, it issued a formal warning to david rosser. your conduct does not meet with the standards required of a doctor. it risks bringing the profession into disrepute, and it must not be repeated. faced with two such highly critical judgments on david rosser, jacqui smith had a difficult choice — either get rid of her newly appointed chief executive and risk bad publicity, or do what she eventually did, battle hard to keep him. the trust's first course of action was to appeal the employment tribunaljudgment, which not only cost the trust dearly, in terms of legal fees, it also prolonged the stress and expense for eye surgeon tristan reuser. i thought that was all done and dusted, and the trust decided to, well, go for appeal on seven different grounds, which left me in a position that i have to defend this, because you can't not defend it, which means that you have to spend another 50k or 70k on this, plus lots of nightmares and sleepless nights. in some ways, that appealjudgment was just as critical of the way the trust was run as the original employment tribunal findings. and once its appealfailed, the only way for the trust to keep david rosser was if he passed what is known as a fit and proper person's review, a test required by the health care regulator, the care quality commission, to ensure that nhs leaders are of good character and sound judgment. jacqui smith appointed a uhb employee who was ultimately a subordinate of david rosser to carry out the review. she was assisted by an outside law firm. the fit and proper person review has been kept secret by the trust. only the briefest summary has been released, essentially finding david rosser had done no wrong and knew of no wrongdoing. this conclusion, though, seems to fly in the face of the employment tribunal findings. quite astonishingly, the fit and proper person review found that david rosser was a fit and proper person, and after all of the things that had been going on, you have to ask yourself, there are things that are failing there. but did the uhb board really have the full facts in front of them when they approved the exoneration of their ceo? david rosser had refused to accept the gmc�*s formal warning and insisted on representing himself at an in—person hearing. that meant that the formal warning wasn't actually issued until after uhb had concluded their fit and proper person review. jacqui smith insisted that there was no need to re—examine david rosser�*s suitability in the light of the formal warning by the gmc. yet a review into clinical safety at uhb found that the gmc and employment tribunal findings brought into question david rosser�*s suitability for senior leadership roles. there was stinging criticism of the then chief executive, david rosser, at an employment appeal tribunal. that triggered the fit and proper person review, which jacqui smith then found out and established and she oversaw that he was a fit and proper person. and it later emerges that really there were serious questions and question marks over david rosser�*s leadership. and, you know, jacqui smith needs to understand why did she get that so wrong? evidence that britain's coronavirus epidemic is spreading again. the fit and proper person review was conducted in the autumn of 2020 when covid numbers were surging. birmingham was hit hard. more than one and a half million people in birmingham, sandwell and solihull are told they can no longer socialise at home with other households. david rosser was interviewed by bbc news. we can't see any reason why we're not expecting the numbers to double again next week and quite probably the week after. and that means — it means a lot of distress for a lot of patients. but at the same time that the trust was struggling to cope with a surging wave of covid, and when her ceo was facing grave and damaging criticism, jacqui smith, the chair of the trust and its ultimate leader, decided to take up to three months of unpaid leave in order to appear on television. dancing the samba, _ jacqui smith and anton du beke. jacqui smith has since said she agreed to take part because it looked like the pandemic was more or less over. this was not the case. numbers were actually surging. in the midst of people risking their lives to come into work. so i worked on the front line throughout. i can remember the first time i came in and saw that the visitor car park was empty and it was just the staff car park. and it really hit me then, that each one of us were risking our lives by working through this. and jacqui was on strictly come dancing. gerry moynihan was a uhb trust governor.
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