Transcripts For BBCNEWS HARDtalk 20240713

Now on bbc news, its hardtalk with stephen sackur. Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. For many filmmakers and filmgoers movies are about escapism and entertainment. Look at the listings in your local cinema and youll see what i mean. But not so for my guest today. One of the most lauded and durable directors in the uk Film Industry ken loach. He has made 27 films, he has won the biggest prize at cannes twice, and yet his films are the very opposite of escapism. His latest is an unrelenting, bleak take on the exploitation of workers in the so called gig economy. If entertainment isnt his mission, what is . Ken loach, welcome to hardtalk. Thanks very much. A pleasure to be here. Around five years ago, i seem to recall, there was some talk of you maybe not making movies for very much longer if at all. Yet here you sit having just made another movie, sorry we missed you, before that you made i, daniel blake, which won a huge prize at cannes. So can we take it that your passion for filmmaking burns as bright as ever . Well, it does, because its a huge privilege to do that. And there are so many stories to tell. Did you come close to quitting . Well, at the time, it was a slightly misjudged remark. I mean, i was up to my knees and an irish bog, my feet were wet, and i thought i cant go on doing this much longer. But, you know, you come out, you get dry, the people around you are terrific fun and creative and a joy to be with and you think, well, why not, you know, keep pressing on. But since then that one remark has rather dogged me. But try to distil for me what gets you out of bed and onto the set every morning iiow. Fundamentally is it about a love for the art, for the craft of filmmaking, or is it because of the political passions that drive you . Both, both. And we do our best not to make bleakfilms. So i disagree with you. You heard my introduction. I heard, yes. And i think that was a little unfair. Because bleak is not. Because anything that tries to explore our relationships, how we live together, the mothers, fathers, partners, kids is not bleak, because relationships are full of warmth and contradiction and affection and disagreements and struggles. And thats the essence of humanity. And thats not bleak. Well, i take your point. But lets just focus then on the movie that youre just releasing sorry we missed you. Because ijust happen to be lucky enough to see it in a prerelease screening. And ill tell, honestly, that its a film where i came out of the cinema feeling heavier than when i went in. You know, it brought a dark, sad, depressed mood upon me because of what id seen. And is that not something that you sort of want, ina way . Um, well, not exactly that. But, stephen, this is a story of the lives lived by hundreds of thousands of people in our country. There will be couriers in the bbc now delivering or collecting who are working under those conditions. And if they are youngsters and full of energy itll probably work for them. If theyre family men orfamily men and women, with obligations, with kids to bring up, then they know the stress of bogus self employment or zero hours bring. All right, well, let us then, for those who havent seen the movie, which is the great mass of the population, it will be released soon. Lets just be clear that about this story because it focuses on one family, one particular man, ricky turner, his wife abby, and their two kids. Now, ricky was in the construction trade, he lostjobs, he couldnt get work. He decided, despite building up heavy debt, to buy a van and become a Parcel Delivery man working for a big company which basically employs these people, nominally self employed, but driving them with ruthless efficiency in terms of their service contract. Its called the gig economy. Did you set out to try to tell the world that this gig economy is exploitative and wrong . Well, its certainly exploitative and its a product of the free market system. You know, constant drive to lower labour costs. So if you can avoid paying holiday pay, you can avoid paying sick pay, you put all the responsibility of things go wrong on driver and you call them self employed delivering a service, rather than employee, you can cut labour costs. So its a product of the so called free market. And his wife abby is a care worker going and looking after the most vulnerable people, the old people in our society, gets them out of bed, gives them their medicines, washes them, you know, in an impossibly short space of time. Zero hours contract, no travel time paid. So both are exploited, both exploited in insecurejob. But both wanted those jobs. And surely the point is. Crosstalk. Well, want, um. They wanted a secure. They need to earn money. Whether they want those jobs under those conditions, knowing what they know about them is something else. They wanted a secure job, like you do, like most of us. Yeah, but this is about, i suppose, your style and the way you make movies and knit your stories together. Would it be fair to call you a polemicist in the sense that there is one overarching message which drives the movie . No, no. If its a polemic then its a thinnerfilm. I mean, its about sons and fathers. Its about, um, brothers and sisters. Where one brother goes off the rails and this puts this young sister in a situation where she has to be the peacemaker. Its about exhaustion. All that is true and its beautifully done, but. Crosstalk. So its not about the polemic then. Well, except that the reason, you know, in the terms of the film, the reasons why this family is under so much stress, always in the end, comes back to the exploitative working conditions, the fact that the parents cannot be at home, they have to work until 9 00, 10 00, 11 00pm at night, that the kids essentially are having to look after themselves so much of the time. There is a framework to it, which you dont like the word bleak and i lets use a different word, but its depressing, its grim for these people. Well, its your world its the world you live in. Its the world that passes you by every time you come into the bbc. As i say, its our world. Were in the middle of it. And everybody lives of their lives in social context. And i think if i were to make a general criticism of cinema, particularly of all the whether its compared to writing or theatre or poetry or music or whatever cinema often shows characters with no visible means of support. And yet work and family are the two areas where we live our lives. And the experiences of work absolutely affect your life. And im sure, weve never met before, but as a generalisation, im sure your work has affected your family life and the history of your family connections. No doubt about that. And so therefore the connection between work and family is absolutely central to how we live. Sure. I suppose my point, and i used that word polemic before, but this is not a film, and maybe critics say this about many of your films, its not a film of the greys, of the complexities, it is a film largely of black and white. For example, we dont see one self employed gig economy worker in the film who is positive about the way theyre working. But you said to me during the beginning of this conversation, you know, there are young people for whom this works pretty well and they like it. And the surveys show there are a significant number of people on even zero hours contracts who are with that style of working. But they dont appear. But this is the story of one family. I mean, paul laverty who wrote the script, hes a wonderful writer and im hugely fortunate to be able to work alongside him. Youve worked with him a lot over many films. A quarter of a century. Hes a fantastic writer and he did the majority of the research. And you speak, i mean, he would travel to drivers. I mean, he saw them, he bought a sandwich when he went round with one driver. It was still there at the end of a 12 hour shift. You mean he hadnt had time to eat it . He hadnt had time to eat it. I mean the he had a bottle in the back of the van because the controlling scanner in his van didnt give him time to go to the lavatory so he had to urinate into a bottle. Now, i mean, this is the reality of hundreds of thousands of peoples lives and i think to say, oh, well, you should have had this character in and you should have had that character in thats trivial, to be honest. I mean, letsjust hear these peoples stories, you know. Its not like a bbc Panorama Programme where youd expect to hear both sides of the argument. Unlike the one that was a vicious attack onjeremy corbyn. This isnt a Panorama Programme. This is a story of a family. And it is interesting that so many of your films focus on families and individuals who are, you know, one way or the other at the bottom or close to the bottom of the pile. Well, theyre the working class. And thats the phrase that comes up again and again in the decades of your work, that you feel youre making films about the working class. Has your notion of what the working class is changed over 50 years of filmmaking . Um, well, the central defining characteristic of those who sell their labour without a stake in the profits. I mean, that is as far as a simple definition. Are they, put it this way, do you feel theyre oppressed in the same ways today that they were when you set out . When you made kes, for example, a film we all know. No, i mean, there are many differences between now and the 1960s when we made kes. I think the word oppression needs definition. Because the point of our economy is that people invest in order to extract surplus value from the people who give the labour in order to turn it into profit. I mean, thats how the system works, isnt it . Its about profit from investment, right. Yes . Yeah. Yeah, it is. If its not profitable it doesnt get investment. So thats what its about. So, i mean, what youre doing is a critique of capitalism . You dont need to be grudging. Its the basic fact of the system. Thats the motor. As somebody said greed is good. And thats how it works. Some people would say thats exploitation. Now you can call that oppression or you can call it exploitation, or you can call it a necessary profit motive to make industry work. But it is, nevertheless, the worker doesnt get the value of his labour. Thats the essence of the system. Now, thats changed obviously and the working class has changed in many ways. And thats what im interested in the change. Because, again, in the films you make, but lets focus on the most recent one, sorry we missed you, the workers in it are pretty homogeneous. Its set in the northeast, newcastle, the workers that we learn about, not just the family, but the people around them, are all local people. There are no immigrants really featured in the film at all, which these days in the uk economy, amongst working class people, is unusual, and ijust wonder if you accept that the homogeneity of the working class is not what it was, its changed . Sure. I wouldnt dispute the fact that weve had immigrant workers and immigrant families that have been here many, many years and would no longer see themselves as immigrants. And if you look you will see there are black workers in the film as well as white workers. And questions of identity are really important now. Not just class. And maybe the Brexit Debate that the United Kingdom has been tying itself in knots over for the last three years is a reflection of that. You are raising all kinds of different questions now. I mean, lets just stick with one. Im happy to deal with them, but its like throwing sand in your face when you say that. Because brexit is a whole other issue, an argument between two sections of the right, changes from the 60s to now, misses out the thatcher period when the critical dangers occurred. Your own background is fascinating because you were raised by what youve described as a tory working class dad who wanted to better himself and wanted you to better yourself. Im not sure id use that word. I think he just wanted, he just wanted a secure life, really, for himself and for me. But, interestingly, thanks to your gifts, academic and other, you went to Grammar School, you went to oxford, you trained in the law. I mean, you, actually, were a great example of upward social mobility. And so when we talk about the working class and your thoughts on it over a 50 year span, it seems to me you are looking at the working class from roots which were quite working class, but where youve actually moved somewhere very different. And ijust wonder how much you feel you know about todays working class. Well, again, you use phrases i have to challenge. Upward social mobility, that was the problem with Grammar Schools, because i was in a medium sized Industrial Town in the midlands. There was virtually no middle class. And there was a selection system at age 11, where 60 boys. Im a Grammar School boy, too. 0k 60 boys come out of a population of 70,000 people. 60 boys only, at age 11, were told you may go to university. The rest were told, youre finished at 16. Now, thats a price. The point of the developing society is that everyone moves up. Iget it. My question was. Crosstalk. You were separated off at 11, and then you went to oxford university. I9, i went to national service, plunged into a barracks of 22 lads from all over the country and i learned more. Fair point, you did military service, but you then went to oxford. And i learned a hell of a lot there, as much as i did in the dreaming spires. Butjust if you would address my point, how easy is it, to be sure that you have the authentic pulse of todays working people when by definition, you are a successful, middle class person . Are you a journalist . Iam. So how do you stay in touch . I stay in touch by reporting, by visiting, by trying to see what is happening around me. Exactly, youre a good journalist. I do the same. But your role is somewhat different. You tell fictional stories. Youre trying to make points. You burn with passion, as we have discussed from the very beginning of this interview. You are challenging my and the people i work with ability to connect and listen to people. I am saying to you, that is a talent that i should share withjournalists, and the key to staying in touch is listening, is recognising our common humanity, is understanding the choices they have. Its just being with people, and if you cant empathise and understand, then you cant work. How do writers write . How does anyone engage with the world around them . You have to listen, you have to understand. You have to be in their position. You have to have known enough of the world to recognise that youre not an anthropologist. You are someone who stands in solidarity. And i think obviously, if you can do that, you can do it. If you cant do it, you cant. And do you think the way you have chosen to make movies, a very specific way, a lot of people say i can tell within two minutes whether im watching a ken loach film or not, is that a very important part of. I dont know if the word is authenticity, but the genuineness of what you do . Because you very rarely use big name actors. You often use actors who have hardly acted on screen at all before. And interestingly, in this latest film, the amazing lead part is played by a guy who, for years, was a plumber working in the service economy. And hes your lead actor. How important is that element in what you do . Well, you just try to be authentic, really. And find people who the audience will care about. The actors in the film have got to be able to make a fictional situation believable and credible. They have got to bring it to life. Now, thats acting. By anybodys definition, thats acting. And they are bloody good actors, right . So i dont patronise them, calling them non actors or any of that. But finding authenticity is important, because you want to be able to communicate to the audience, hey, these people could really be doing thisjob. They know how to do it. Theres a truth in what theyre doing, because the work, the actual physical work, is part of the story. So you dont have to do it with back projection and all the tricks of the film business to pretend they are driving, or pretend they are a character or something, they are actually doing it. That connection to the work is part of what the film is about. Your relationship with the wider movie industry fascinates me, because youre the sort of antithesis of everything that many people think of in the movie business. And it strikes me that when you have on your big awards at cannes, you go off there onto the red carpet, you hobnob with the a listers and the celebs and the the studio moguls. I dont hobnob with anyone where did you get that idea . Ok, im exaggerating. You are exaggerating. My question is based on the sort of disconnect, in a way. You adore your industry, you adore making films, but it seems you have nothing in common with so much of what your industry is about. Thats fairly true, yes. The interesting thing. The interesting thing is the screenings, the people who know the stories of the films, their own lives. And you have terrific conversations and share the enjoyment, if there is an enjoyment to the film, or share what has come up on screen, and they tell their stories, and thats brilliant. I mean, thats the reward, really, of doing it. And not parties and putting on a black tie. But presumably bums on seats is also a reward. You care about drawing an audience for your films. Absolutely, and the films have always been financially viable and successful, otherwise, you know, if we did two films that lost money on the trot, wed be out. It interests me that right now, some of the greatest filmmakers of the sort of hollywood scene of the last 50 years, martin scorsese, stephen spielberg, theyre all slagging off the franchise movies, the superhero movies, saying that theyre extremely sort of corrosive to the movie business. But in the end, theyre the films that win huge audiences right around the world. Do you have a problem with those purely entertainment, escapist driven movies . Well, i think on the list of priorities to be concerned about, that comes down fairly low. Because there are such big issues that people face. But if you care about the cinema, you want the cinema to. Well, an analogy i have tried to use before, the cinema should be like a library. You should have all the diversity of a library in it. Because films and images and sound arejust a medium, and you can do anything. You can tell documentaries, you can capture reality, you could tell fictional stories. All kinds, all kinds. So the problem with cinema is it is the equivalent of a small shelf of airport novels. And compared to what it could be, and also, the films that are made across the world but we never see, the problem within the cinema, it is notjust the superhero films, i mean, i dont know, i never see them. But its the use of the medium, and enabling people to enjoy the rich diversity of which its capable, and the rich diversity of films that are already being made. And we never see them. And youre a part of what diversity there is, and you have been for 50 years. Does it matter to you that your films, in some way or other, have made a difference . Because theyre clearly movies with messages. And do you care about the degree to which those messages have moved people and changed people . Yes, message sounds like something you can reduce to a couple of sentences. You cant. I hope you cant. I know, certainly the complexity of pauls writing, you cant reduce to two sentences. So it matters that, yes, people are touched. It matters that they are engaged emotionally and also intellectually, or in their ideas. Because otherwise we failed. So if they are engaged, and then, what happens when they leave the cinema, its up to them. If they feel, hey, i can do something about this, and i need to be in my union, i need to get involved in this community, i need to support this action, or i can be involved in, you know, in the extreme, in a political party, thats great. But first of all, its just reaching out and saying, hey, this is happening, what do you think . And i dont get the impression from our conversation that you have any intention of declaring another retirement from filmmaking . Chuckles. Well, its like football. When you get old, youve got to take each game as it comes, really. Ken loach, well have you back after the next movie. Thank you so much for being on hardtalk. Thank you. Hello there. Its been a very unsettled start to november, even indeed before november, weve seen a lot of rainfall around. Low pressures been firmly in control and its been quite cold as well. The rest of the week stays unsettled thanks to low pressure, it will be quite windy too and we will see some snow around as it will remain cold, particularly over the higher ground. Lower pressure firmly in control of our weather for tuesday, bringing fairly strong wind from the north west there will be a lot of showers circulating around it. Early on tuesday, it looks like most of the showers will be across parts of scotland and Northern Ireland, Northern England, some wintriness over the high ground of scotland but further south, it should be dry with lengthy clear skies. But that does not mean it wont turn quite chilly here. 1 3 degrees here with the showers, generally 4 5 degrees to start tuesday. So we start with sunshine across the south, and in other areas, but bands of shower and long spells of rain spreading into south eastern areas into the afternoon. And there will contine to be some wintriness over the high ground. It will feel cold with temperatures 7 8 degrees. Out on the wind, itll feel quite raw. Low pressure pushes off into the north sea and allows a bump of High Pressure to build in before wednesday before this next weather system moves in wednesday night into thursday. It could bring some areas quite a lot of rainfall, unfortunately. Through wednesday, though, it could be a chilly start in central, eastern and Northern Areas but dry and bright thanks to that bump of High Pressure. The next weather system will be arriving across Northern Ireland and wales and the south west of england, bringing some heavy rain here later in the day and it will be another chilly one, temperatures struggling to get up as much as 4 degrees across scotland. Through wednesday night a few showers here and the weather front across the south west will push northwards and eastwards, itll pivot as well, we think. Bit of uncertainty too, its northwards or southwards extent but some areas could see quite a lot of rainfall it could be the flood affected areas in the midlands and Northern England could see quite a bit of rainfall. But again, i have to emphasise theres some uncertainty on the position of the weather front. There are a number of flood warnings still in force and this rain could exacerbate that. So stay tuned to the forecast and head onto the bbc weather website. As we head out into friday the weather front eventually starts to fade and move southwards and eastwards. So it could be quite cloudy on friday across southern and eastern areas, one or two showers here, quite blustery. But further north and west, we will see a ridge of High Pressure move in. Its an improving picture here with some good spells of sunshine. And temperatures again on the low side, sticking in single figures for most. This is the briefing, im sally bundock. Our top story as weather conditions worsen in australias new south wales, the Fire Service Warns it is now too late to leave in some areas. Activists in hong kong block roads and clash with police, a day after some of the most violent unrest during five months of pro democracy protests. This is the scene live. Hillary clinton tells the bbc she is dumbfounded that the uk government wont release a report into russian covert actions in the uk. An unexpected polluter