Now on bbc news hardtalk. Stephen sackur talks to sea resuce captain carola rackete. Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. The number of migrants making the sea crossing from north africa to Southern Europe has fallen dramatically in the last two years. Tragically, the number of deaths hasnt declined as fast, why . Well, humanitarian activists blame the anti migration policies of eu Member States led by italy. My guest is carola rackete, who defied the italian authorities to land the rescue ship sea watch 3 in sicily with 50 migrants onboard. To some shes become humanitarian hero, but will her actions merely encourage more people smuggling and more suffering . Carola rackete, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you very much for inviting me. You have emerged from an extraordinary experience earlier this summer, captaining a rescue vessel in the mediterranean, picking up almost 50 or so migrants, ending up docking in italy in defiance of the italian authorities and then in detention for a while. How much of a toll has that experience taken on you . My First Experience in this organisation was in 2016, volunteering. Sea watch. When you talk to people from libya, coming from the civil war, your White Privilege suddenly is very, very little. You wear the captain of sea watch 3, one of the vessels that has been in the mediterranean, monitoring looking out for people in desperate straits out on the sea, often in dinghies about to sink. When you signed up, were you aware of just how potentially controversial and difficult your mission was going to be . Well, when i first started volunteering in 2016, it was a completely different situation. There was a lot of mutual support with the authorities, the european military, particularly the italian coastguard. But then in 2017, the first rescue vessel, the iuventa was arrested. From that moment onwards, particularly the captains but all the crew understand there is a risk of criminalisation, so the scene over the years has changed completely. So you picked up, i believe it was 40 50 migrants about a0 miles off the coast of libya, was immediately in your mind that you had a problem and you had to think very carefully about what to do . Well, we were very aware of the difficult political situation. As you mentioned, this is a situation that has been growing over the years. So the lack of solidarity within the European Union to distribute the people who arrive over the sea route, and due to the dublin three system, that burden is carried by the states of the southern border of italy, and that is a situation which is caused by the states in Central Europe and Northern Europe because they dont want to change the rules. We will get to the politics of this in some detail later. Butjust paint a picture for me of what condition the people were in that you came across on sea watch 3 in early june 2019 . Who were they, and in what condition . There were 53 people on a rubber dinghy, which we know from experience is very unstable, i have seen one sink within nine minutes once they deflate. None of the people had lifejackets. There were two infants, pregnant women, no navigation equipment, no food and no water. So under by the maritime law, that is a distressed case because you can be sure these people cannot arrive to any port. And were they begging you to take them onboard your vessel, the sea watch . Yeah, they were definitely aware of how dangerous the situation was. People were terrified onboard these boats. They know they can break, they can capsize, sometimes people fall overboard. In 2017, for example, i rescued a two year old boy whose father had fallen overboard three or four hours ago. You mentioned the infants and pregnant women, was it predominantly young men or was it a real mix of people . I think in this case we had about ten women and children and the rest were men. Right. You of course had a choice to make at the beginning. You were much closer to the libyan coastline than you were to anywhere in europe, roughly a0 miles from libya, the coastguard is now committed thanks to eu support, finance and equipment and training, they are committed to clamping down on the people smuggling and they want all of those who attempt to cross to europe to be returned to libya. Why didnt you return them to libya . It would be breaking the Geneva Convention about the non refoulement because we know that these people are suffering human rights abuses in libya, also in the detention centres. This could be kidnapping, torture. Are you saying you dont trust the libyans to look after the basic human needs of these people . Not for one second. We have a lot of experience with them and their human rights abuses are well documented by the eu as well. They know exactly what they are doing and who they are financing in the libyan coastguard. They have through, various warlords, evolved, taking control of the boats. They are now financed, and complicit in many human rights abuses and there have been cases where the coastguard disrupts our rescues leading to the deaths of people who needed rescuing. As we have established, you were very well aware of the political context in italy but nonetheless you decided to take the sea watch towards southern italy and towards sicily. You ultimately spent days and days floating around, i guess, beginning a dialogue with the italians, or at least asking them for permission to land enter italian territory and waters to land your passengers. Now, what did the italian say to you . Well, the italians said that we are not responsible for this rescue case because it had been carried out in the libyan waters. Which is true. Which is true, it means they have to co ordinate a effort. However, the libyans dont have any port of safety, so we would be breaking the law by bringing people to libya, that has been pointed out by eu commission. After two days, in italy, there was a german city that offered to take our people and even send a bus to sicily to pick them up. But unfortunately, both the interior minister of germany and italy didnt want to agree on the situation. Are you aware that it is illegal for a rescue vessel such as yourself to enter italian territory waters and also illegal to attempt to land at an italian port, and yet, in the end, you did that . Why . Well, two laws are in conflict with each other here. The maritime law, which says that you have a duty to rescue, and your rescue is completed when you bring people to a port of safety, and then you have the national law, which in this case, which prohibits the entry. So we were hoping for political solution, such as offered this german city, so that people could disembark outside the territorial waters and that would have prevented the whole scenario which followed. And while you were waiting, i was wonder what conditions the passengers, the migrants on your ship were in and how much pressure did you feel to do something to get them off the ship . Well, the situation was worsening every day, particularly the psychological situation. So nearly all these people have been in different types of prison camps or have suffered from human rights abuses as already mentioned, some suffered from post Traumatic Stress disorders, some suffered from torture wounds which hadnt been treated properly because they didnt have access to healthcare and the pure worry of not knowing where your future leads you and what will happen. That led to the fact that people were severely disturbed and doctors in the end, my medical team, at the end said that they couldnt guarantee the safety of the people anymore. Obviously you your team spoke to some length of what was roughly in effect two weeks of this journey, you heard some of their stories. Where were they from . Did you form an opinion of whether these are largely economic migrants or people seeking asylum because they were fleeing conflict and persecution . They came from various sub saharan countries, most of them. And i think its very interesting to think about why these people migrate and i think it largely has to do as well with the environmental breakdown, which industrial nations are causing. So most people like to stay at home, really, if they can. But the economic, Socio Economic conditions are so difficult in many countries that people have no choice other than to go somewhere else. Thats yourjudgement, that doesnt necessarily match what International Law constitutes refugee status, but well get back to that in a minute. I just want to finish the amazing story ofjune, because after not getting permission to land in italy, you, in the end, took the law into your own hands and piloted your own vessel into the sicilian port, against the wishes of the authorities. You slammed into what appears to have been some sort of police boat, squeezing it, according to the italians, against the harbour and they say in a very dangerous fashion. It does seem in the end you were pushing the very edge of safety, and responsible behaviour in your decision to land your boat . Well, theres quite a few videos of the scene which everyone is invited to watch, you can see the boat moves very slow. The people at risk really where the refugees who we had onboard. And the italian authorities had. Well, 17 days to resolve the situation and they didnt. Well, they say, and indeed they charged you with the illegally entering the territorial waters and also for endangering the safety of an Italian Police vessel. And they charged you and for a while, it looked as though you were going to stay under house arrest in italy for some time. At that point, where you beginning to regret what you done . No. I certainly didnt regret what happened. I regret that there was such a lack of solidarity and the European Union. I mean just 4,000 people who arrived from this route this year to italy. So i really regret that we do have that situation at all and i think its outrageous that we cannot give people access to their human rights. Well, isnt the very point youve just made that there are now so many fewer people making the crossing and ending up in italy or indeed malta or Southern Spain from the sea route, doesnt that make the point that mr salvini, who is sort of the poster politician for a new tough anti migrant policy in Southern Europe, his policy is working as a deterrent . We havent spoken to those people, i guess. It has deterred many, many would be migrants were making a highly dangerous crossing. The question is why arent they coming . Well, we just made that point. The European Union is already making things difficult for people trying to enter libya, they are also trying to pull back via the libyan coastguard, people in a country in civil war and the death numbers are as high as they have ever been, relative death numbers. Well, yeah, they are not as high in absolute terms. The number of deaths of migrants at sea is proportionately higher now, as a proportion of the overall number making the crossing than it was in 2015 2016, when the overall figures were far higher, but lets get back to the figures, because theyre quite extraordinary. Arrivals by sea to italy have dropped from 84 from the 2018 figure, 97 down from the 2017 figure. So, right now, as we speak today, italy, with its tough stand, has ensured, let us be honest, that thousands of people who were going to attempt to make that crossing and would have put themselves at risk are no longer doing so. That should be celebrated, shouldnt it . I am not sure that the credit here goes to italians. It is the whole of the European Union which has withdrawn their rescue vessels, and which is complicit in the libyan coastguard pulling back these people, as i said, to a country at civil war. Would you not accept and you are right, its notjust italy, but spain and malta and greece as well, all of whom now have a real tough stand on not wanting to let these vessels land, actually launching criminal prosecutions of some of the rescue mission workers such as yourself. This has had a real effect on the mentality of people who might have made the crossing, and you surely dont want tens and tens of thousands of people to make that crossing, do you . I think we have to see the fact that migration, as such, isjust a fact of human life. I mean, everyone outside africa has come from africa at some time, right . The point is that due to the whole, say, history of colonisation, the large inequalities between the global poor and the global rich, there is a lot of reasons for people to migrate, and there is a lot of injustice between people around the globe, and as long as we dont resolve that, people willjust migrate, and particularly due to the climate breakdown. We will get to the climate breakdown and how important you feel that is as a push factor away from sub Saharan Africa in particular, but letsjust stick with this notion of yours that migration is just a fact of life. I come back to the figures which suggest actually there has been a fundamental change in the last couple of years, and i also come to the fact that some players in the mediterranean are quite clear that the rescue missions that the private humanitarian organisations such as sea watch run are actually counter productive. The head of the Eu Border Agency said, frontex, fabrice leggeri, aid this a couple of years ago when he was looking at what groups like yours were doing he said that rescue operations need re evaluating. He said that ngos are, ineffectively, cooperating with National Security agencies, and he said ngos who rescue people in the sea off libya are actually encouraging the people traffickers who profit from dangerous mediterranean crossings. Yeah, and such accusations have been also mentioned against the italian coastguard, when they were rescuing during mare nostrum. Which they no longer do. Which they no longer do, but it was the absolutely same accusations. In the week that sea watch started their operation, 1,000 people drowned, so it was first first, people were trying to cross the sea and then the civil ngos were a reply to that. It wasnt the other way around. But address frontexs testimony theyve had officials in north africa who have spoken, for example, to the people smugglers, the traffickers in libya who have said, who have openly acknowledged putting people onto these dinghies, which are clearly not seaworthy, not capable of travelling the 200 miles to southern italy, and they say, well, we dont care if they cant make the 200 mile crossing. All they need to do is get 20 or 30 miles offshore, out of libyan territorial waters and we know that these ngos will pick them up and take them to italy. You are, in a sense, offering a taxi service and the people smugglers are exploiting you. Well, they can also look at the numbers from this year where, for example, on the days where there were rescue ships out there, on average, there were 33 people leaving from the shore, and on the other days, when there was no ships, the number was 35. I just wonder if you feel you are not being a little patronising, not least to the libyans. Throughout this interview, you have said that you dont trust a word the libyans say, that you think the conditions inside libya and the detention centres for migrants are appalling and inhumane and contravene International Law. The libyans respond by saying that you, ngos, do not respect them and that you wont work with them and that you are consistently undermining their activities. Well, we do co operate to the degree, which is complicit with the law, but we can, of course, not accept instructions such as bringing people back to libya, because that will be a non compliance with the Geneva Convention on refugee rights. You have mentioned the International Conventions concerning migrants at several points in this interview. I just wonder from your experience, yourself, working with sea watch for some time, whether you truly believe that most of the people crossing from north africa, attempting to get into Southern Europe are genuinely fleeing persecution and conflict or whether so many of them are actually, for very understandable reasons, economic migrants . Well, they all come from libya and it is a country. Most of them are not libyans. Libya is a country at civil war, so, in my position, i am the sea captain, right, and i see the boat in distress and it really is not my position to judge how and why someone came here, and if you wanted to know that, i think it would be interesting if you were talking to these people and then you could ask them why they are travelling and they could give you the reasons. But you see, you say its not my position to judge, and i well understand that, but it seems to me, at points, you dojudge. For example, you have said to me or many of these people who have come through libya from sub Saharan Africa, they are what you call climate refugees. You have said in the past that europe has a duty to accept these climate refugees. But, i mean, that may well be your moral, ethical position, but that doesnt match International Law and it certainly doesnt mean that they are eligible for refugee status. Yeah, i mean, International Law or law, as such, is an interesting thing because it is always formed by the society, right, and it can change. You see there were times where, for example, slavery was legal, women didnt have a right to vote. It doesnt mean it is morally right and climate breakdown as such is still a fairly new topic, if you want. So, it is still not included in the un refugee rights. No, its not. But it doesnt mean that its not going to happen in the future. It also doesnt mean its morally right. Well, sorry to interrupt. I am just exercised by this, because if you are to take your logic to its conclusion, you would, and other ngos, would recognise the obligation to help these what you call climate refugees and there could be millions of them, literally millions of them, seeking over the next ten, 20, 30 years, to enter europe. Are you saying that europe has a legal, as well as moral obligation to take all of these migrants . Well, we have to look at the facts, which are first and foremost, that most people, when they migrate, they go very, very short distances because, especially the global poor, just dont have the money to move very far. So when we are thinking of the facts of climate breakdown, like changes in precipitation, crop failures, famine, most people will starve very close to their homes. They are not going to come here. You know, the percentage of people who cross a border is very low, most then stay in neighbouring countries. So, really, we are talking about possibly or much yeah, likely, higher numbers than we have now, but most people who will be displaced think of wales, you have coastal erosion, for example. Some people will have to move homes and so on, but they are not going to canada. They are going a short distance, theyre going. Yes, your view of the moral ethical obligations is very different from that of most people in europe. Do you recognise that in the end, democracy has to be acknowledged and recognised and respected in europe . According to the pew research center, 71 of italians want fewer immigrants or no immigrants at all very different from your perspective. Yeah, and i think that opinion probably comes from, as i already pointed out several times, the lack of solidarity within europe, when we are talking about receiving these people. People have a solidarity, they have a solidarity to what they see as defending their national interest. Yeah, and when we see, for example, people in germany, which have been surveyed, i think injune, then 65 said they would like to welcome people. So there is differences within the European Union, and i certainly understand that italy was bearing a far too great share of the responsibility within the eu. Final thing will you go back to sea again and conduct more rescue missions . Yes, i certainly would. However, i am a nature conservationist, so i might work on other issues in the future. Carola rackete, it has been a pleasure to have you on hardtalk. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you, stephen. Hello there. This weeks weather is looking fairly benign. Thats because weve got atlantic influence, so a mixture of conditions a bit of sunshine, some cloud, generally temperatures around the seasonal average or a little bit below. And, in fact, wednesday looks like one of those days where the temperatures will be below average, and itll be windy, as well, so thatll make it feel even cooler. And the reason is because weve got this area of low pressure moving down from the north west, around our area of High Pressure. Two weather fronts on it, one bringing rain in the south east, this next one bringing plenty of showers to scotland and Northern Ireland through the day. But that rain should clear away from the south east through the morning. Skies will brighten up, but the winds will pick up from a north westerly, bringing plenty of showers. In the northern half of the country, some of these could be quite heavy, and those wind gusts, 30, 40, maybe 50mph, could even be stronger in exposure. So itll feel cooler 10 13 degrees in the north, 17 19 across the south east. As we head through wednesday night, it stays blustery. Looks like those showers continue on for awhile, and then most of them clear away. But more return to the north and the west of the country, and its going to be another cool night. In fact, temperatures in Single Digits even in towns and cities across northern areas, just about making double figures in the south. So weve still got a similar pressure pattern with High Pressure in across the south west. This area of low pressure will bring some wetter weather and also some cooler weather as we reach friday. But for thursday, were in between the systems. Well see a few showers across northern and western areas, and actually, slightly milder air moving in behind this line of showers, so we could see 15 16 degrees in the north. Further south, variable cloud, some sunny spells, just one or two showers, again the mid to high teens celsius. That area of low pressure i showed you moves in for friday, brings quite a bit of cloud, outbreaks of rain. This is a cold front moving southwards, and that again will introduce cooler north westerlies, so the temperatures will be down again on friday. 13 to around 15 or 16 in the north, 17 or 18 across the south east. That front clears through. High pressure wants to build back in as we head into the start of the weekend. Thatll introduce something a little bit milder once again, and the winds should be a bit lighter. So, fairly breezy across the east coast for a while, but that High Pressure will bring lighter winds, increasing chance of sunshine around. So thatll feel a little bit warmer, i think, for the start of the weekend, with the mid teens in the north. 19, maybe 20 degrees across the south east. And we hold onto this fairly benign pattern through the weekend and into next week, with atlantic air moving in on a westerly. 00 28 57,787 2147483051 51 13,608 figure, 97 down 2147483051 51 13,608 4294966103 13 29,430 from the 2017 figure
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