Where this city has been engulfed in another weekend of protest and violence. I will be back at one a. M. On sunday demonstrators now on bbc news its hardtalk. Targeted the airport, Stephen Sackur speaks seeking to bring this Global Travel to Dame Stephanie shirley. Welcome to hardtalk. Hub to a standstill. Im Stephen Sackur. Police conduct beatings in a subway system vandalised by protestors. Eighty years ago, hundreds ofjewish children were smuggled out of nazi occupied europe by train in a covert humanitarian mission which became known as the kindertransport. My known as the kindertransport. My guest Dame Stephanie shirley, who was one of those children. She went on to live an extraordinary life of achievement and philanthropy, blazing a trail for women in business, science and technology. What lessons can we learn from a woman determined to make the most of a life so nearly extinguished in childhood . Theme music plays. Dame stephanie shirley, welcome to hardtalk. Inaudible almost 80 years from that moment when you were forced to leave your home. Your father you on a train, the kindertransport, and father you on a train, the kindertra nsport, and you father you on a train, the kindertransport, and you ended up in an alien country, in london, england. What do you remember of that journey. Of course, england. What do you remember of thatjourney. Of course, i england. What do you remember of that journey. Of course, iwas england. What do you remember of that journey. Of course, i was only five years old, so all things i remember, the childish things, remember, the childish things, remember the little boy that being sick, i remember losing my doll and finding it again. The general what is england, what is happening, i was with my older sister aged nine so you think how small a five year old is, it was a traumaticjourney and an extraordinary change to a new country, new family, new food, you everything and i think my parents really did a very brave thing because they sent us basically into the arms of strangers. They knew the name of the people who agreed to foster us and waved us by thinking never to see us again. At five, were you able to understand the grave danger you were in as girl, your father was jewish of danger you were in as girl, your father wasjewish of course, a little girl under nazi occupation. little girl under nazi occupationli do not think so. 0ne little girl under nazi occupationli do not think so. One had seen the gradual development of anti semitism so gradual development of anti semitism so my sister had stones thrown at her, my father lost his job so my sister had stones thrown at her, my father lost hisjob is so my sister had stones thrown at her, my father lost his job is an all these various things one was conscious of. We were quite short of money and it became obvious that the family was in problems but i think dues across europe new to remain in nancy europe was catastrophe. Nazi. I want to reflect as we are thinking about the kindertransport to reflect on things you have said where you have always maintained that this journey, the exile, the loss of your home and, indeed, for the most part your parents, although you were reunited but it was never the same relationship again. You saidi the same relationship again. You said i constantly was aware my life had been spared and i must do something with while with it. Did you, something with while with it. Did you , even as something with while with it. Did you, even as a child growing up in england, feel that . I you, even as a child growing up in england, feelthat . I think the kindertransport experience did several things for me which most are lifelong things. As i mentioned, i came to enormous change and that meant i have learned to manage change, in fact i Welcome Change and thatis change, in fact i Welcome Change and that is very useful to be in a fairly steel high tech career. People are saying and it is not a good thing to say to children, are you not lucky to be saved so i was very conscious that i was lucky and indeed i was. My Foster Parents work particularly good. But the feeling that i really needed to justify my existence has driven my life. That was planted early and in reflect on it almost every day. Yes, i tried not to fritter my time away. I am conscious there are things i could do for other people and that is what iaim to do for other people and that is what i aim to do so do for other people and that is what iaim to do soi do for other people and that is what i aim to do so i have a wonderful lifestyle, happily married, things are lifestyle, happily married, things a re pretty lifestyle, happily married, things are pretty good for me. Lifestyle, happily married, things are pretty good for melj lifestyle, happily married, things are pretty good for me. I promise not to telescope everything in too much of a rush. Let us go back to you as a young girl making your way in this new country, england. You showed a remarkable gift for mathematics and it was remarkable in a sense because, at the time, young girls were not expect to excel in mathematics, to be interested in it oi mathematics, to be interested in it or to do it. All the sciences were not considered to be suitable for girls, except for botany, the study of plans. Your Foster Parent saw quite early you had a talent. You went to a boys school for mathematics for a while. Went to a boys school for mathematics for a while. You can imagine what fun that was. You had to study at my school to become more ofa to study at my school to become more of a specialist. You really had to push to get the education you clearly benefited from. Yes, i love to do new things so that was not a hardship as far as i was concerned. I studied, i hardship as far as i was concerned. Istudied, i knew hardship as far as i was concerned. I studied, i knew i hardship as far as i was concerned. Istudied, i knew i had hardship as far as i was concerned. I studied, i knew i had to get good results in order to get out of poverty and i went for it. You went for itand, poverty and i went for it. You went for it and, at the age of 18, got your first job for it and, at the age of 18, got yourfirstjob and for it and, at the age of 18, got your firstjob and i for it and, at the age of 18, got yourfirstjob and i have for it and, at the age of 18, got your firstjob and i have written this down because it amuses me because it sounds so 19405 or this down because it amu5e5 me because it sounds so 19405 or 505, i gue55 because it sounds so 19405 or 505, i guess it would be them, the post Office Research station. You should not 5neer, it was a World Renowned Research station. What was your role . I worked on the first electronic Telephone Exchange and the one that everyone remembers, the premium on computer, ernie. You are using the word computer. In tho5e tho5e computers. Are using the word computer. In those those computers. Ij are using the word computer. In those those computers. I am in a Computer Museum you are in the cutting edge, adopting computers, coming to terms with what computers could do and a5 coming to terms with what computers could do and as you say, it was actually a high tech job at the post office and you went into the private sector at icl and spent a couple of years there but what intrigues me is you discovered, at the leading technology company. It was our national pride. I discovered the Glass Ceiling. I felt unable to grow the kernels that were in me. What did you mean by Glass Ceiling at the time . I think i was getting soft, mild discrimination. Women did not do this, i could not apply for promotion, it was not suitable for me to be talking about marketing, i wa5 technical and generally feeling that i was not allowed to expand from being a technical person to what i became, a manager. I hope a good manager, i really worked very ha rd good manager, i really worked very hard at that. But the fact that doors were closed or very hard to open, really made me bite assertive, aggressive, i believe in equal pay, i will carry my own things, i will do my own things, and that set a tone, perhap5, do my own things, and that set a tone, perhaps, for do my own things, and that set a tone, perha p5, for what do my own things, and that set a tone, perhaps, for what was going on in the rest of the world. Were talking now about the late 19505 and the early 19605, at a time when the word feminism wa5ju5t the early 19605, at a time when the word feminism was just beginning to be used although frankly for many women it was not a word they were terribly. I personally avoided the word which because it was very much antimale, which i am not. It was. The men did not like it and now, we had to have a house rule not to wear trousers because we thought it was threatening to the man. We were really moving into an era. At that time women were earning about half the rate of men, they were not able to sign up mortgage, hire a car, get atv to sign up mortgage, hire a car, get a tv set because mail signatures we re a tv set because mail signatures were needed for all that. You had this idea in your head that there wa5 this idea in your head that there was a real gender i55ue this idea in your head that there was a real gender issue you were determined to improve the lot. |j believe in the world being a really fairand it is believe in the world being a really fair and it is not fairfor due5 believe in the world being a really fair and it is not fairfor dues in nazi germany and it is not fairfor women. nazi germany and it is not fairfor women. Jews. Nazi germany and it is not fairfor women. Jews. Leaving aside terminology, what you did by an action was created company which specifically looked to tap into the talent of women, women who are good with technology and computers and his potential was not being elsewhere. You are quite right. I am a feminist elsewhere. You are quite right. I am afeminist in elsewhere. You are quite right. I am a feminist in a deed though not in word. How did you build a company in the 19605 that could use the potential of so many women whose potential of so many women whose potential was not being used. Potential of so many women whose potential was not being usedlj potential of so many women whose potential was not being used. I was using a labour force that was skilled, that was highly motivated and that nobody else was fishing in. I had the cream of some technical people. But female. Female. I had to balance that with. What is the word i want . The fact that they wa nted word i want . The fact that they wanted flexibility, the fact that they would not work in an office, they would not work in an office, they were home base, so it was a family friendly, female organisation which i became enormously motivated by because i felt it was notjust me, it was all these women. In a sense, you are a pioneer which today would be known as workplace flexibility, focused on a work life balance, on the sort of flexible contract that can rely people. reckon i started all that, the gig economy. You think . 0h, reckon i started all that, the gig economy. You think . Oh, yes. Iwas doing the sort of things. To provide jobs for women with children. All of these really matters because these are debates that continue an extremely important debate that continue to today. Isnt it disappointing that 50 years i was still have women saying i feel discriminated in, i feel still have women saying i feel discriminated in, ifeeli still have women saying i feel discriminated in, ifeel i cannot do this, i feel my skills are not valued. It is really rather pathetic. That is an interesting word. I think it is very sad from societyposmac point of view that so many people do not feel valued stop you have at times suggested that young women today. This current generation of Young Workers have it easy. You told thejewish chronicle in 2013 that the young women of today have got it dead easy compared today have got it dead easy compared to the women of my generation. And i would say that again today. You have no idea how difficult it was when i was young and started to work in the 19505. My firstjob was in 1951. I hear the young women and they have things that they need to struggle with, things that they perhaps need to remedy in themselves but the world is still not fair to women. Which is precisely what they would say they would say, look at the fa ct, say they would say, look at the fact, look at the degree, for example, in the uk, the ftse 100, example, in the uk, the ftse100, the Country Companies in the country still dominated by men. It was very ha rd to still dominated by men. It was very hard to push it. Young women would say that for all of the deeds and actions you took to try and create a flexible workplace for women, others did not follow and, to date, the situation for young women looking to work in the tech sector or many other sectors still is reflective frankly of a mans world. Will that is certainly true and the thing that needs to happen to make the world a fairer place is not that men should change and try to be more following the mail but that men should actually understand the skills that women have male. Should actually understand the skills that women have male. The different way that women approach life and the different value systems, the different body language. And that actually equates the two genders in that way. I also think. I mean, i have advocated for women for 50 years, it never really going to happen until the men start advocating for us. It is difficult. But gender diversity is only one. It is the main one, i suppose, but one of the different diversities that companies are struggling with. dont wish to believe that the issue around gender and discrimination to labour the issue. Women who call themselves feminists have been taken call themselves feminists have been ta ken about by call themselves feminists have been taken about by your notion and again, iam taken about by your notion and again, i am quoting your own words, hope that is fair, that women dont wa nt to hope that is fair, that women dont want to pay the cost of success stop you say, i rememberfriends being surprised that i never went to the National Theatre but when i was setting up my business, there was no time for such things and this, you say, is the price for success. You have to be prepared to pay the price, whether it is the cost to your health, your family, price, whether it is the cost to your health, yourfamily, and it can be enormous. Are you suggesting that there are women who arent prepared to know all the way in the way that men are in terms of committing to their careers . I think that is quite clear in certain situations. There are also some men that opt out and say, iam not are also some men that opt out and say, i am not going to study, i am not going to do this, that all the other. That is one of the ways in which people decide how into a certain except extent why. Which people decide how into a certain except extent why. Lets talk about how you struggled as an increasingly subsist full this woman and goodness knows, through the 705 and goodness knows, through the 705 and 805, youre an original freelance company took off. At one point, amazingly, one of the papers said that you were worth more, your wealth was at least theoretically greater than that of the queen of england. No, quite incorrect. I trailed her majesty the queen. England. No, quite incorrect. I trailed her majesty the queenm made a good line. At the very same made a good line. At the very. Trailed her majesty the queenm made a good line. At the very. At the same time you were going, you are also struggling. Your samples make autism was problematic. And this is one of the things that is taking me into areas of diversity pulled up i struggle to get people with autism to actually have the opportunity to do professionaljobs and do all the things that they want to do even though they have a condition that makes it not easy. Tell me if you can, how difficult it became. Your son, as he grew up, as a young baby, there was no sign. He was a lovely baby. But the condition worsened. And as a teenager and then a young man, it was very difficult. Well, to summarise, he did have to go to hospital permanently at the age of i3. I hospital permanently at the age of 13. Ijust could not manage him anymore. He was strong, he was violent at times and i just couldnt ta ke violent at times and i just couldnt take anymore. For many years i had managed the various stresses of my business and home pressures and they talents in a sick sort of way. The only time i forgot my son was when i was working and i am a workaholic and the only time i forgot him when i was at work. They is not a terribly healthy way to work but it kept me going for many, many years. But as things got better, i broke down, got old fashioned, nervous breakdown, finished up in hospital myself. Again, i hesitate to go into it because it is difficult but nonetheless, you have been public about it and i think people around the world listening would relate to it in the world listening would relate to itina the world listening would relate to it in a very profound way. You say that your breakdown was so extreme that your breakdown was so extreme that there was a time when you, and indeed your husband, talked about ending your lives. Well, that was before he went into hospital. We just couldnt manage any more. We spoke seriously about family suicide. My husband actually had the good sense to dissuade us because he felt that it might be suicide for us and it wasnt a suicide for our son. He pulled out and glad he did because we have come through it all. We are all very glad he did but it is extraordinary that you, you are a Business Leader who is known across the country and indeed internationally. You have become a philanthropist who has given tens of millions of pounds to many different causes but to kelly daughters and research to autism causes. You have opened up about the degree to which the struggle was part of your life. When my son was young, i felt inadequate, guilty, thati when my son was young, i felt inadequate, guilty, that i should have a child like that will stop im not fit to be a mother, am i doing something wrong . There was indication from outsiders that you are bringing him up all wrong. I think children like my giles need pa rents think children like my giles need parents like me to fight for him and fight i did. I parents like me to fight for him and fight i did. I made myself pretty unpopular and took some complaints right up to the health ombudsman. And across the world there are families going through these sorts of difficulties and i am morning for them. I of difficulties and i am morning for them. I mourn forthem. About more than one in 100 children are on the autistic spectrum so it is not a rare thing anymore. We really need to understand how people with autism think, how the brain works, so instead of pressurising vulnerable people, many without speech, to join the society that you or i enjoy, we really have to learn to modify societys ways in order to embrace and cherish the skills of people with autism. And your commitment to that, to doing your absolute best to give people with autism the best chance of a good life. You have given away, some people say, roughly around £17 million to this. You have written, i do it because of my personal history, again, i need to justify the fact that going all the way back to the beginning of my conversation, that my life was saved. I am so lucky. My life was saved. I am saved. I am so lucky. My life was saved. Iam now saved. I am so lucky. My life was saved. I am now quite healthy. I have come to terms with a lot of my only child stop i still miss his need of me, but i am now a very happy person together with my husband of 60 years. Your country today, britain, is now wrestling again with questions of how to view itself in the world, how open or closed its borders should be. What its attitude should be to people seeking refuge in this country, say, from conflict in syria or afghanistan or deep, deep poverty and troubles in africa. Do you as a transport survivor, what do you make of that debate in britain today . found a Wonderful Charity called safe passage which brings todays unaccompanied child refugees to britain and so i am supporting that andi britain and so i am supporting that and i think in that way, one has that cycle, circle, that makes sense of the things that happened to us. It is horrific that children who have family in this country are not able to come to england in a legal way and this is what safe passage does. You have survivor s guilt. Are you able to tell yourself today that yes, you did it, my achievements absolutely represent a success and that you can shed all notions of guilt . I have probably shared notions of guilt shed notions of guilt, because if there is any antidote to survivors guilt, it is compassion and for the last 35 yea rs i have it is compassion and for the last 35 years i have been working as a philanthropist and i get enormous satisfaction and joy from what i do so that guilt has gone. I still feel that there are things that i can do and things that i should do, things that i must do, things that im want to do, and thats what drives me. That i must do, things that im want to do, and thats what drives mem has been a pleasure having you one hardtalk. Dame stephanie shirley, thank you very much. Thank you very much. Hello there, good morning. Cloudier, milder weather is set to return across much of the uk for monday. The weather will look a little bit different to the way it did on sunday. Still a few showers around at the moment, particularly across Northern Areas but it is turning quite chilly and we have clearer skies across the south as well. We have had those cooler, fresher, north westerly winds on sunday and they will be replaced by these west south westerly winds coming around top of this area of High Pressure. Were going to find these weather fronts focusing the wetter weather across the northern half of the uk. Ahead of that, with the clearer skies, in eastern scotland, eastern england, it will be chilly and temperatures could be lower than this in rural areas, perhaps three orfour degrees. Milder across Northern Ireland and western scotland. They will start the day with cloud and outbreaks of rain which will push steadily eastwards. Further rain through the day across scotland. Always wetter in the west. Rain for Northern Ireland and Northern England and north wales. A few spots of drizzle further south over those western hills. Middle and south east england, sunshine in the morning, cloud in the afternoon. It will probably be dried down the south. Temperatures at best 22 degrees. Even with the cloud, to ridges are higher than sunday. Quite high with the rain. The winds will put away a lot of the rain. It will stay damp around these coasts. 0n the whole, a lot of cloud around and asa 0n the whole, a lot of cloud around and as a result, the temperatures will be higher. The High Pressure is getting squeezed down to the south of the uk. The broad westerly airflow, some weather fronts on the scene, complicating what is a fairly straightforward cloudy air mass that is heading our way. There may be sunshine across eastern areas out to the west. We will find some thicker cloud, rain and drizzle. There will be some brisk winds, too. Still dry for eastern parts of england in the south east and we will see highs of 23 celsius. In the north west, the rain could turn heavy later. It will slide its way down across england and wales and bring some rain into south eastern areas. Could be half an inch of rain overnight into wednesday morning as the wet weather hangs around for a while. And then we will get some sunshine and showers along with spells of rain driven down across scotland and Northern Ireland and into Northern England. Windy conditions, actually, for western parts of scotland and that will start to drop the temperatures once again. North to north westerly winds on wednesday but then were back to this Atlantic Winds as we head into thursday. Again around that area of High Pressure. 00 28 31,283 4294966103 13 29,430 rain in the north
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