Welcome to hardtalk. Im zeinab badawi. It is 60 years since beijing put down the tibetan revolt, which killed tens of thousands of people. That was also when the dalai lama began his long exile from his homeland. While still the tibetan peoples spiritual leader, he relinquished political control eight years ago. Our guest today is the de fa cto our guest today is the de facto president in exile, Lobsang Sangay, who says the situation is now critical and that tibet is a huge prison under chinas unfettered rule. So what are the tibetan peoples ambitions now . And what is their strategy for achieving it from the increasingly assertive and authoritarian chinese leadership . Theme music plays Lobsang Sangay welcome to hardtalk. How do the tibetan people remember that revolt 60 years ago . Thousands tibetan of gathered in the capital city to protect the dalai lama from the chinese army and then it resulted in a bloodshed. As per Chinese Military archives, 80,000 tibetan were killed between march and september 69 and the dalai lama had to trek to india at monday on may 17th. 60 years of tragedy and exile but also resilience and success exile but also resilience and success because in excel we have set up success because in excel we have set upa success because in excel we have set up a democratic system and, as for the division, we have a parliamentary system, executive. How do you remember that anniversary in exile . A community of about 200,000 tibetans. We have the anniversary. To bet belongs to tibetans. Tibet. China should get out of tibet. China should get out of tibet. It resulted in a bloodshed. There was a turning point where we lost a n there was a turning point where we lost an independent tibet which came under chinas occupation. What are your demands now . What we seek is, all the countries around the world, subscribe to one china policy and the Chinese Government also says solitary and integrity of china cannot be compromised. Ok, we will ta ke cannot be compromised. Ok, we will take that, just give us genuine autonomy within the framework. Because there is a Tibetan Autonomous Region but you say does not go far enough. It is only on paper and tibetans do not have power. Genuine autonomy should be given to tibetan people. That is the middle approach, middle between seeking separation from china and of the repression of the tibetan people. The 550 strategy is rather confusing. You do not want independence, there is an autonomous region in china called tibet and you say it is not good enough. What is of the 550 strategy . Based on an approach within five years should be dulled between envoys of the dalai lama and representatives of the Chinese Government envoys. At the same time we should plan for 50 yea rs if same time we should plan for 50 years if need be to return to tibet to maintain solidarity with tibetans inside tibetans, to maintain contact with Chinese People say they understand the plight. So it is a long game. Short and long. If you are going to play the long game, the chinese leadership will say, we will sit on our hands for the next 50 yea rs. Sit on our hands for the next 50 years. That is true. But we also have a shot game. But you are giving them a choice. We are not giving them a choice. We are not giving them a choice. If you study exile governments, many, here in london during the second world war, at some time they tend to disappear and die lewd. If necessary, we need a 50 year strategy. Other talks behind the scene because we have not had any talks between the dalai lama and his representatives with the chinese. January 2010 were the last ones. But informal contact, a lot of buddhists, china is one of the largest buddhist country in the world. Many buddhists and well intended people and also some chinese who have worked in the government before. Formally, officially . Informally. But that is not going to get you anywhere. You are maintaining links which will not give you outcomes. We hope it will result in practical consequences. We are genuine and sincere. We are willing to meet envoys anytime anywhere the Chinese Government wa nts anywhere the Chinese Government wants us to. But it is not getting you anywhere. One commission on china said the Chinese Government continues to regard the dalai lama asa continues to regard the dalai lama as a leader of separatist forces. That is still how they see him. That is how they say it officially and until now that is how they say it but what we want is wisdom and well on the part of chinese leaders to see the repression of tibetans is not working and we need a solution. I also had a similar issue but the good friday agreement did come, you had. The United Nations Human Rights Council last year said conditions are fast deteriorating in tibet and the International Campaign says 150 people have carried out self emulations in protest at beijingss action. What can you do to prevent these self emulations in particular which have resulted in people dying . I have made it categorically and consistently clear to tibetans inside tibet they should not do that. Life is precious and should live and continued to protest against the oppression of the Chinese Government. Despite the appeal, self emulations continues. It is very painful. I lead a small practice in the street in any town of tibet i will imprison, torture, disappear and die. They say it is better to die quickly by burning oneself than prolonging your death and causing suffering to your family members as well. This self emulations is happening because freedom houses index, for the last three years in a row, tibet is seen as the least free region in the world. Other any cases that strike you in particular . 70 of very young. 16, 17, 20 years old and before they burn themselves they say, want to we see the return of tibet, we want basic freedom. The demands are very simple and universal. It is still the Chinese Government refusing to see the reality that oppression is not working and also the International Community should be talking more about it. All these are not reported outside because the Chinese Government does not allow journalists to go to tibet. When was the last of the bbc was in tibet . The reciprocal access to tibet four american officials, journalists and tourist tibet to that may hopefully improve the situation. Yes, after passing that act the Chinese Government allowed the Us Ambassador and a 30 member delegation. It is and a 30 member delegation. It is a start. It is a start and the uk government and other government should consider the same. Once you have that kind of law, allowing bbc journalists and others to visit tibet and report on tibetan issues. You say we do not report a lot but for example the way other minorities are treated in china, we heard about the uyghurs and how they are treated and we have heard what the government in beijing because the Vocational Education camps. Two such camps exists for tibetans . Actually, the Party Secretary of where they are is the same architect and implemented the same policies in tibet. So you have these camps . We do have these camps but not as large as the uyghurs. People are sent to labour, imprisonment. Do you have a figure detained in these camps and prison . That we really do not know. It is estimated that it could be as high as1 it is estimated that it could be as high as 1 million or more for the uyghurs but the Political Prisoners arrested, imprisoned, were talking arrested, imprisoned, were talking a few thousand. This has to be put anything context of how china is viewed in the International Immunity and we know it is increasingly a global player, politically and economically and under president xi it isa economically and under president xi it is a fairly authoritarian, centralised rule from bashan. The special co ordinator on tibetan issues during the Barack Obama Administration says increasingly see countries which have spoken out on behalf of tibet shying away from doing so. China is too big for people to ignore. They will always side with china, not tibet. Some countries do. We have seen even in europe. 28 embers of the European Union and it is divided. 16 plus one. Italy hasjoined union and it is divided. 16 plus one. Italy has joined the group. Union and it is divided. 16 plus one. Italy hasjoined the group. It is 17 plus one. Whenever there is a resolution passed on human rights in china in the Human Rights Council, most of the 16 members of europe will not vote. You are reinstating what i said. China is obviously a permanent member of the un security council. We have seen 460 more resolutions passed to do with Israeli Palestinian conflict on tibet just one because Israeli Palestinian conflict on tibetjust one because china vetoes. They are very powerful. What can you do . Appeal to all the democratic countries, you say you are committed for human rights, you say you are in support of nonviolence then you should support tibet issues. This model principle that you claim should be implemented. It is following on deaf years. The tibetan government in exile, the dalai lama, evenin government in exile, the dalai lama, even in is not supporting you. An Analysis Group in the us says that india tends to favour relations with china at least over tibetan issues in general. Your host nation is not even backing you . In general. Your host nation is not even backing you . India has done the most fought tibetan people. The largest number of tibetans are in india. Our education and other things are subsidised by the government. By far they support us the most. But when it comes down to it, it will go with china. So far not. For example india has not signed one china principal in the last few years as part of an agreement. But last year prohibited approach tibetan rally in delhi. They told us to move. They told us to move. That they told us to move. That is they told us to move. That is the they told us to move. That is the point i am making. Under chinese pressure, india will. Yes but the event happened and we got more coverage event happened and we got more coverage because event happened and we got more coverage because of chinese pressure. But that is changing. A tibetan academic at the university of the british columbian canada says india is sensing that to bets appeal in the west is declining. If it sees no concerted International Effort on your behalf, it will say, why should we bother . effort on your behalf, it will say, why should we bother . I think he is wrong. I travel to all the capitals andi wrong. I travel to all the capitals and i saw yesterday the honourable speakerjohn berger acknowledge me in the british house of commons. Also japan four. Does make don burke over. Ten years ago, japan would not mention to bet. John over. Ten years ago, japan would not mention to bet. John bercow. It is the largest in europe. You see that. Is the largest in europe. You see that. The is the largest in europe. You see that. The governments are relu cta nt to that. The governments are reluctant to meet the dalai llama. We saw what happened in the uk in 2013 when David Cameron did meet the dalai llama. Lama. Britain has opened a new chapter on this whole matter. They didnt see him in 2014, the vatican said because of the delicate situation with china. The vatican said because of the delicate situation with chinam the vatican said because of the delicate situation with china. It is u nfortu nate delicate situation with china. It is unfortunate that the pope should not, you know, should not shy away from standing up and meeting with him. Having said that, he met with the president of slovakia and other leaders. But key countries. My point, ijust gave testimony leaders. But key countries. My point, i just gave testimony and spokein point, i just gave testimony and spoke in front of the canadians and it committee on foreign relations. I spokein it committee on foreign relations. I spoke in front of the check sub community on environment. Czech. There is another aspect of all of this that makes your work difficult. What robert fadi in the us says, one in the 1990s, free to bet activist had a relatively free hand in many spaces. Ageing has used money and social mobilisation to foreclose some of that rhetorical territory. So, china, through its infrastructure projects, through lifting people out of poverty, that is resonating with the tibetans in the autonomous region in china. No, not at all. That is where we have 153, unprecedented in the history of debate, it never happened. Millions of people. The total population of tibetans in the whole of china is about 7 million. 6 million, yes. But it does it symbolise the resistance of the tibetan people. Farmers are protesting. Wherever there are mining taking place, tibetans are protesting to top it is true. The systematic terror, they are doing it. The economic might of china and it. The economic might of china and it has the High Speed Railway link and official growth rates of the country are high and to bet as a whole and efforts from that. The chinese official, most senior official in tibet has said, the dalai lama has not done a single good thing for tibet since he left where as they see these economic benefits and they might think well, we will just live benefits and they might think well, we willjust live our lives within this Greater China that is prospering. Not at all. For any given day, if the Chinese Government is that confidence, you can have a referendum of tibetan people and make them choose between china and tibet or chinese leader and tibetan leader. I can say hands down, overwhelmingly tibetans would vote to have their own tibetan leaders. 0k, to have their own tibetan leaders. Ok, theirown to have their own tibetan leaders. Ok, their own tibetan leaders, but they havent gone very far and there is dissatisfaction with what the leadership has delivered. 60 years you have all been in exile. Not you personally but the whole movement. For example, the 30,000 strong to youth congress. Its president says there is a sense of frustration among our people who have lived so many years in exile. We have to educate people for the need for an independent tibet. They are marching toa independent tibet. They are marching to a different tune. They see the middle way is not delivered, they wa nt middle way is not delivered, they want something different. When you are young, you will be frustrated, you will be agitated, i completely understand that. There is a report to tibet was never part of china but metal remains a viable option. Historically, tibet was independent and do we deserve independence . Yes. But is there a possibility we could get independence from china . No. So we have to be pragmatic to stop based on the reality of the world and china, the middle approach came out. So your aspirations are clear, it is the means. So what can you do to meet these frustrations . Could you carry out several deep flexible differential obedience campaigns, mass protests, like we have seen in hong kong against paging policies . Beijing. Violence . Violence is fertile. Mass protests inside tibet, given the choice, tibet would do it but they are not allowed, they will be repressed immediately. Outside, all kinds of protests are happening all over the world. For example, this march ten, all over the world, we had the largest demonstration and participation of tibetans in the last 60 years. Does this get you anywhere . I put it to you that as nathan hill who is from the school of African Studies at london university, says, the fate of tibet is in the hands of the chinese state. Tibetans outside the region are not very relevant to the fate of debate and this includes the dalai lama. You really dont have any impact. We do because ive spoken to hundreds of tibetans inside tibet. They do see us as the partner, as the spokesperson, but if you study any movement, had you asked Nelson Mandela in the late 1980s, many news media ruled him out. Even gandhi when he was fighting for independence of india, you look at east timor or Northern Ireland. Often these things happen. Eventually, things change and as far as tibet is concerned, things will change for the better. That much we are very shy. You represent a very small group. You are voted for 58 for a second time by an electorate which is what, 60,000 . Yes. Is a very, very small mandate you have and greg bruneau from Tibetan Affairs says many tibetan refugees arejust affairs says many tibetan refugees are just pushed away by 10 by time, they arejust are just pushed away by 10 by time, they are just moving are just pushed away by 10 by time, they arejust moving on. Are just pushed away by 10 by time, they are just moving on. Not at all. Tibetans throughout the world a re at all. Tibetans throughout the world are Getting Better education, better exposure. They will be final talented and better leaders in many yea rs talented and better leaders in many years to convert up similarly inside tibet, too, they have not given up hope and we are partners. What we represent in exile is the moral symbol as the spokesperson for the tibetan people. Your moral symbol is the dalai lama now he is about 83 yea rs of the dalai lama now he is about 83 years of age, he is cutting back on his travels. He is tired. When we look at the post dalai lama era for all of you, it is going to be even harderfor all of you, it is going to be even harder for you all of you, it is going to be even harderfor you to raise all of you, it is going to be even harder for you to raise interest. You have lost that moral compass. The situation is very hard to stop we lost our country, we lost our freedom so we should persist and persevere. Post dalai lama will be difficult but having said that, he is very healthy, he will live very long. We hope so. We will have 15 dalai lama. He identified an 11 year old boy who must be about 30 now and he was kidnapped by the chinese and we dont know what has happened to him . It has been 30 yea rs happened to him . It has been 30 years since he disappeared. We are very concerned about the situation and we demand his immediate release. So hopefully the Chinese Government will see to it that he be released. He has been given proper education. Thats what they should be doing. This is a religious issue, a spiritual leader who disappeared for 30 years. The dalai lama has long advised the tibetan people to hope for the best and prepare for the worst. 60 years, you havent got anywhere, you were born obviously well after the exile of the dalai lama, you have never seen tibet. Born in exile in india. Do you think you will ever see it . Of course, of course, definitely. In 2005, iwent to beijing. I was allowed to go. They promised that i would be allowed to go to bed but i did not put up in my lifetime, i will definitely see tibet, that much i know and freedom will be restored for tibetans. As long as the dalai lama returns to tibet. Lobsang sangay, thank you very much for coming on hardtalk. Thank you very much. Hello there. Uk forecasts coming up in a moment but first of all, well start off with a look at what has been an incredible week in europe. A week thats seen newjune temperature records set in all of these countries, most impressively in france where the new record of 46 beat the old record by five degrees celsius. That extreme heatwave is now beginning to come to an end because we have cooler and fresher air day by day, working in across these areas of europe, moderating the temperatures significantly. It will come as a relief, i am sure, to many in europe. Here in the uk, we have had skies like this over the course of the weekend, broken cloud and spells of sunshine and more of the same to come in the week ahead. Often the weather is going to dry with some sunshine and the sunshine is going to feel warm. But there will be rain at times across the north west of the uk and indeed if you are heading outside over the next three hours, there is a risk of seeing some rain in scotland, a few showers for Northern Ireland, Northern England and perhaps the north of wales as well. But otherwise, the further south you go, the drier the weather is. It is certainly not going to be a cold start of the day. Temperatures 11 14 degrees first thing. Looking at the weather picture in more detail for monday. We have this seclusion pushing southwards. Thats going to take an area of thicker cloud with it, along with showers. So scotland seeing plenty of showers through the day and a few will get across Northern Ireland and into Northern England and north wales as the day goes by. South of this area, for southern wales, the midlands, east anglia and southern counties of england, the weather should stay dry with well broken cloud and some fairly lengthy spells of sunshine around. That is why we will see some of the highest temperature towards the south and east, temperatures into the low 20s. A little on the cool side for the far north of scotland. Another sign of summer is the fact that wimbledon starts today and its going to be a dry day with some sunshine. Temperatures into the low 20s. Similar weather, actually, lasting throughout the week although perhaps getting a little bit warmer towards the end of the week. For tuesday, weatherwise, fewer showers and what showers that are around will be across the north west of the country. Generally more in the way of sunshine for most areas and temperatures generally high teens to low 20s for many of us and still a little on the cool side for northern scotland. Later on in the week, cloud will thicken across the part of scotla nd with outbreaks of rain for a time. As you can see, for much of the time, the weather will be dry and bright for many areas. Across england and wales, it looks like it will be a largely dry week with some sunshine. Temperatures running into the low mid 20s, feeling warm in that july sunny weather. Thats your weather. Welcome to newsday on the bbc. Im mariko oi, in seoul, south korea. The headlines a handshake and a moment of history donald trump becomes the first serving american president to set foot in north korea. Stepping across that line was a great honour, a lot of progress has been made, a lot of friendships have been made, and this has been in particular a great friendship, so i just want to thank you. That was very quick notice, and i want to thank you. As mr trump returns to america, some criticise his trip as a tv stunt but can it lead to concrete progress . Im kasia madera, in london. Also in the Programme Hong Kong braces for more protests as it marks twenty two years
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