Transcripts For BBCNEWS HARDtalk 20180208

Overreacted to the self inauguration of the Opposition Leader, raila 0dinga, as the peoples president . Critics argue that its true authoritarian colours have been exposed by its response to the move. Its also put a deep spotlight on the effectiveness of president Uhuru Kenyattas government. My guest is raphael tuju, the secretary general of the Ruling Jubilee Party. Raphael tuju, general secretary of kenyas Ruling Jubilee Party here in nairobi, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you. Your Governments Authority and legitimacy has been severely challenged, hasnt it, by the self inauguration as the peoples president by raila 0dinga, the Opposition Leader . Thats rabble rousing from raila 0dinga. Weve seen that before, and its nothing to write home about. Youve not seen this before, though. Hes never declared himself peoples president. Well, sometimes you dont argue with people like those. I mean, what does it mean to be peoples president . Its childs play. And you dont see it as a challenge to your authority or your legitimacy . It doesnt. It doesnt challenge us in any way. Its a nuisance, because if theres a little bit of this rabble rousing, hes always tried to have some rallies in the city centre, where he can cause the most amount of damage. Most of the people who go to those rallies are essentially from his ethnic community, and fortunately, in this country. Youre member of that same ethnic community, incidentally, the luo people. Yes, but unfortunately thats how most of our politicians play their politics. They gather their ethnic community, become some kind of warlord for that community, and they can harass everybody left, right and centre using that community. I think he would object to being called a warlord, because he has said that, in his protests against the government, hes going to engage in only peaceful protests and civil disobedience. How is the government responding . You just mentioned that i come from that community. Ive never known somebody more violent than he is. In his own area, the nyanza, where he comes from, theres a lot of violence in the political process. Theres a lot of rigging in the political process. Go to kisumu and ask people there if they ever have a chance to vote freely. It doesnt happen. Well, well come to that in a moment, because of course he says the complete opposite about you. But lets look at the kind of response that your government has made to his self inauguration. The ceremony, the swearing in ceremony, so called, at uhuru park in nairobi. What do you go and do . You close down the three media tv stations that wanted to cover the inauguration. You resist a court order to lift the ban on those tv stations. Youve only just partially lifted it now. Thats a little ham fisted, isnt it . Well, lets start with the tv stations, for a start. First of all, they are enjoying a certain monopoly that i think the office of communication in the uk would not even allow. They control 70 of the viewership, and 80 of the advertising revenue. For that reason, theyve become a little bit big headed, so that they can always blackmail the government. When there was an attempt to bring about digital migration about a year ago, they closed themselves for one month, acting as spoilt children, throwing tantrums, and this they do all the time. So this, it youre saying, is about their monopolistic power, as you put it, or oligopolistic power. Nothing to do with the fact they wanted to cover this self swearing in . Because it happened at that time. Yes, it happened at that time, and we tried to be as accommodating as possible from the governments standpoint. Unfortunately, they re such oligarchs who are used to blackmailing. Besides, in many ways, the media, if we do the quantitative analysis that we have confronted them with in the recent past, they all admit that the quantitative Analysis Shows they are biased towards nasa. Nasa, of course, is the opposition alliance, the National Super alliance. Not only that. But its a free country. They can support the opposition if they want. Which is ok, but i think it is important that we should call it what it is. They are an extension of the opposition party. The manyjournalists who are working in those stations who are contested as opposition candidates, then when they lose in those primaries, they come back and continue as journalists. It is inappropriate for people who claim to be professional journalists to take such a partisan approach, especially after they have contested seats as members of those parties. All right. So, fred matiangi, the internal security minister, says that the tv stations have switched off because there was collusion between them and some nasa opposition members to incite violence, but they are saying, where is the evidence for that . Where is the evidence for that . Has anybody been brought to court for trying to incite violence from the tv stations . You know, you have to understand this country a little. We are not a nation state. We are 42 different nationalities. Its not like a lot of countries in the west. We are trying to forge a country out of a geographical phenomenon. This is a country with a lot of potential to break into civil strife and civil war. In fact, it is a miracle that weve survived for over 50 years without having a major breakdown of law and order. We have four different races from africa converging in this country. It is a very big country. So youve got the evidence against these members of the media, but youre not going to bring any case against them . You know, its much, much deeper than that. Ive just talked to you about the media being an extension of the opposition party. I can even go further. Thats all right. There are many countries in the world, though, raphael tuju, where you have newspapers that are affiliated to a particular political party. Let me finish. Im giving you the complexity of this country. You have a judiciary also which is a reflection of the society, and members of thejudicial system, including judges, have been known not have been known, but we see them making decisions also which are based more on their ethnic loyalties as opposed to fidelity to the law. When you have media which is an extension of the opposition and then you have judges, many of them who are having more than loyalties to their tribe than to law, its a much more complex thing to deal with than what you are dealing with in london. But the point i am making to you, though, is your reaction to this self inauguration, by shutting off these tv stations, has attracted widespread condemnation, internationally as well as within kenya. Ahmednasir abdullahi, who actually represented president Uhuru Kenyatta at the Supreme Court last year, said of your aggressive stance on the media, the whole world condemned raila 0dinga for what he had done. The government had the high moral ground. For me, this is the government shooting itself in the foot. Hes right, isnt he . Youve shot yourselves in the foot, the way youve overreacted. It is an opinion. The world will be the first one to condemn and to laugh at this country if we degenerate into violence, and even the bbc would find it very difficult to fly into this country, even get a hotel in which to stay. So, which is the lesser of the evils . All right. I just want to continue with the conversation on the media, because, this self inauguration aside, there have been a lot of accusations and reports from Human Rights Organisations accusing the kenyan government of becoming more authoritarian. Looking at press freedoms, kenya. Now, a Human Rights Watch report looking at kenya, on the targeting ofjournalists, logged 17 separate incidents in which 23 journalists and bloggers were physically assaulted between 2013, when uhuru won his first term, and 2017, by government officials or individuals believed to be allied to government officials. It doesnt look good, does it . Well, im not familiar with. You know the Human Rights Watch report . Yes, im not. You should be familiar with it, because its critical. Absolutely. Im familiar with Human Rights Watch, but im not familiar with those specific incidents. But once again i ought to tell you that this country is much more complex than the reports that you receive. We have all kinds of ngos, and some of these ngos are family ngos, or even ethnic and tribal ngos, so the information that they spew out there is not necessarily objective. Human rights watch, though, when it gives numerous reports ofjournalists being attacked, for instance while covering opposition protests, its not an ethnic based organisation. But the reporters who give them the information tend to have these ethnic biases. But the worry is, raphael tuju, that if a journalist writes something thats not to the governments liking, they will be harassed. For instance, walter menya, a reporterfor the Nation Media Group, was arrested injune last year after he wrote stories allegedly implicating senior officials in the use of a foundation to provide Uhuru Kenyattas re Election Campaign with illegal funding. So that kind of person suddenly finds they are harassed, arrested . First of all, what is illegal funding . You have to define that, because we have very little laws in terms of illegal funding. But when you have people relying on rumours, and ruining peoples reputations, i can even tell you that. I can tell you that a lot of this kind of report is usually because they are an extension of the opposition, and, for you, you read a name like that, and it Means Nothing to you. Its just a journalist. For me, you read that name, and i can tell you exactly which part. The Nation Media Group is one of the biggest media groups in the country. But by you just reading the name, i can almost really tell you which is. But there are so many reports from Human Rights Organisations. So you categorically say that the government is not harassing journalists . That they can cover opposition protests and opposition gatherings, and so on and so forth . I can tell you that the institution which is harassing us the most is the opposition. They lie through their teeth. I was just in a function over the weekend, and if you look at the reports that they made about me, you know, a few days back, if you look at those reports, all the papers reported it differently, because they were all lying of what exactly took place, and unfortunately, that is the situation in which we find ourselves. Very many of ourjournalists are not properly trained. A lot of the journalists and editors are in the pockets of different types of cartels, and that extends to a lot of society, unfortunately. When you talk about corruption, we do have corruption in the media. We do have corruption in ourjustice system. We do have corruption in the government. It is a very tough job to deal with all these things. We are trying our best. Were not perfect, but. Far from perfect. Yes far from perfect. Lets look at. Yeah, but you come from an african country, or at least originally came from an african country. Yes, yes, yes. If you look at the kind of freedoms you have here, compared that to those you have in sudan. Yes, where i was born. Yes. But the thing is, violence as we saw in both elections. Of course, there were the elections in early august, and then the rerun on october 26th. You know, 92 people lost their lives in that period, including children, and this violence has really, really tainted the victory of Uhuru Kenyatta, which was accepted by the International Community on october 26th. Hasnt it . Any death is unfortunate. Unfortunately, a lot of these deaths took place in the opposition areas. The strongholds of raila 0dinga. Unfortunately, we also know that theres so much violence in that part of the country, even during their primaries, where the governments side, or the jubilees side, is not involved, people die. They kill themselves. And those numbers, those numbers get into the National Figures as to the number of people who have died. And you find that it is 0dm against 0dm deaths. Its the police and security forces, according to the kenya Human Rights Commission, and Human Rights Watch again say that the vast majority of these people were killed by the police or security forces, either in crossfire or shot at directly. Yes. You accept that . Well, i dont accept it. Particularly in Opposition Strongholds like nya nza in the west of kenya. Yes, yes. In Opposition Strongholds, first of all, there was a lot of 0dm on 0dm killing during the nominations. Those figures adapt to. 0dm is of course one of the opposition parties. The orange democratic movement. 0pposition members against opposition members, killing themselves. That is fact. Nobody can deny it. But its also the police. And then. 0k. Its the police as well. I have to say to raphael tuju. Ill go to the police. No, i want to explain the police. The police are human beings. You approach them with cruel weapons, with knives, with machetes, i dont think they should be standing there waiting for you to kill them. We did lose policemen. It would not be allowed in the uk. It would not be allowed in the us. When activists from Opposition Strongholds, or political players, arm themselves with machetes, and swords, and all kinds of missiles, aiming at the police, the police will act in self defence. By shooting people. Kenya Human Rights Commission advice chair, george marara, says the police have turned brutality into a normalcy. Police have made it their custom to violate the sanctity of life they purport to protect. If youre a policeman and someone is coming at you with a machete to kill you, or to take away your gun so they can use it to shoot you, i think you should shoot them. Raila 0dinga says told us its the complete opposite, that people in 0pposition areas are actually asking for weapons in order to protect themselves against the police and security forces. Human rights watch carried out numerous interviews between september and november last year, during the second election, and found cases of women reporting being raped by policemen and men in uniform. I mean, there are just so many that i could just list for you. You look at surveys. You know that the police really topped the survey of having. People have the least confidence in them as a public institution. You, as a government, have to address this. Im amazed you believe raila 0dinga, but if you do. Well, its notjust raila 0dinga. Human rights watch. I keep on saying to you, these organisations. Your own kenya Human Rights Commission. I mean, people who were residents in the area around the swearing in ceremony talked about live bullets being fired at people. But the Police Always are at the butt of every complaint, but one of the things that people forget is the number of lives that the police save. But, raphael tuju, somethings going on in kenya, isnt it . In the runup to the august election, the first one, we saw that the it chief of the Electoral Commission, chris msando, was murdered just days before the vote, and his body showed signs of torture. In october, before the second election, we saw another Commission Member flee for her life to the united states. Something sinister is afoot. Well, first of all, i regret the fact that this particular official was found dead. He had reported the Previous Year that his life was in danger. We were surprised that somebody who feels his life was in danger was in a nightclub until 12 midnight, one oclock, alone, without his security, in a nightclub, and he was having this kind of. So nothing to do with the election, youre saying . So nothing to do with the election. What has your investigation yielded . Im not in the Investigation Unit of the police, im the secretary general of the party. But i want to Say Something about the claims by raila 0dinga and his 0dm team that they won. They lost this election in february, when we finished the registration of voters. Youre talking about the election on august 8th . Yes. Which was. The result was rescinded by the Supreme Court. Yes. October 26th, the second election, he boycotts that. Yes, and do you know why . Id like to explain that. Elections are won during registration, and because he found out rather late in the day that they had not registered so many people in his strongholds, he went to court over 30 times to stop the elections from happening in august, on august the 8th. They tried 30 times. All right. But is Uhuru Kenyattas victory in october 26th. How legitimate is that victory . The turnout was around 35 . 27 constituencies couldnt vote. I mean, that would surely raise questions about the authority of his government at least, his victory . I can give you the french figures, if you want theyre in the 30s. I can give you the us figures. I mean, only 50 of the people in the us voted. But 27 constituencies in the october election didnt vote. Yes. The 27 which did not vote did not vote because they didnt want to vote, but it was because the opposition visited violence in these places, made sure that people could not vote. The ibc, who were trying to organise voting in those areas, they were beaten up, they were chased away, and you cannot come before the law and say, look, ive stopped people from voting, therefore people did not vote, and therefore the election should be nullified. He didnt want to be involved in that election because he said the reforms that he wanted at the Electoral Commission had not been carried out, and therefore, what was the point of running in the election . Amazing. He should have gone back to the same Supreme Court, which had nullified the previous elections, and complained about this, but for him to decide unilaterally. The Supreme Court has pronounced itself on this, and then he says, oh, by the way, as the Supreme Court was pronouncing itself on this, they forgot this particular element, im going to add it into the conditions myself. Which law is that . So what are you going to do now . The governments position is that raila 0dinga has committed high treason by declaring himself the peoples president. He says he wants to set up the peoples assembly, have a peoples convention, have a campaign of civil disobedience, you know, protests around the country and so on. How are you going to handle all this . Well, we are dealing with a very desperate man, because it is on record, he said it himself, that this was his last time to run. All his colleagues who have supported him have made it very clear, and they do have a memorandum of understanding that he may not run in the next elections. Unfortunately, like all of us, we are ageing, so he has reached an advanced age of 7a years, so this is his last chance. Will you arrest him . Thats not my province to discuss. I think that. But if hes committed high treason, according to your government, shouldnt he be arrested . Well, that is up to the minister and the department which deals with criminal issues to discuss. So, raila 0dingas position now is that he would like the reforms to the Electoral Commission and to the judiciary, and you yourself have said thejudiciary is tainted by ethnicity, and then he wants a third election in august. Whats the governments response to that . Its like a broken record. Hes been singing that since 1997. He, in 1997, when he lost to moi, he said he needed elections in 30 days. To daniel arap moi. In1997. To mwai kibaki. To mwai kibaki, when he lost in 2007, he insisted that elections were rigged, so hes never accepted that hes lost an election, but if you study the kenyan voting pattern, if you study the kenyan groups of populations and ethnic mix, he has no mathematical chance to win an election. But has Uhuru Kenyatta been a good president for kenya . This is his second and final term. When you look around, corruption is a huge problem in kenya. You accept that . I accept. Not done anything about it . Hes had a first term. Hes starting his second term. I mean, ijust give you an idea. This is a man who sacked 13 ministers. Unprecedented in kenyan history. He was tough, as much as he could be. He says his hands are tied. He cant do more. Well, because of. He is the president. Well, because of a very corrupt judicial system. Some of the people who are supporting the opposition have court cases on corruption, and they support the opposition because that gives them a chance to go free, but they have court cases on corruption, they have filed injunctions against being prosecuted, the courts have granted them this, and these are known entrepreneurs who are involved in all kinds of. In fact, we call them tentrepreneurs, because they are involved in all kinds of corrupt practices. Some of the worst known thieves and crooks are members of 0dm, and they are running away from the justice system. And he himself, though. I tell you, though, youre absolving him completely . Because i tell you what herman maynor of the university of nairobi says. He says, when you look at kenyattas big projects for the country, they look good on paper, but they suffer from corruption during implementation. He blames the middlemen and the brokers, but also the president himself. He says, i dont understand why a man like him, who comes from a wealthy family, would allow Wheeler Dealers to tarnish his legacy through corruption. I put it to you, Uhuru Kenyattas legacy has been tarnished through corruption. The issue of corruption is something that all past president s have suffered from. It is a reflection of the society in which we live in. In fact, in a time that the opposition has talked about corruption, ive always asked him, which one . The one you were involved in . The one raila was involved in . The one kalonzo was involved in . In terms of. Kalonzo was raila 0dingas running mate. Yes, running mate. They were all involved. They all have skeletons in their closet. They all have. And so does the president . Not that i know of. Isnt he kenyas wealthiest man . Well. Or at least one of the wealthiest. Well, i would say so. I dont know his net worth. Ive never really bothered to investigate that, but you can explain where his wealth is coming from. He is not a tentrepreneur. Now. Is he the right person, Uhuru Kenyatta, with all this family wealth, the divisions we are seeing now between the opposition and the government in kenya, and people worried about the economy and so on. Is he the right person really to lead kenya . Of course he is, and thats why i work with him. Raphael tuju, thank you very much indeed for coming on hardtalk. Thank you. Pleasure. Hello there. For many places, the day ahead will bring a slightly different feel to the weather something just a little bit milder. Yes, many of us starting the day under cold air. But this wedge of milder air in the atlantic beginning to show its hand. This is tied up with a weather system pushing in from the atlantic. You can see the cloud here on the earlier satellite picture. That cloud is going to bring some outbreaks of rain as we go on through the day. A real split in temperatures as we start off the morning. Perhaps as low as 5, 6 in the south east. Temperatures generally above freezing for Northern Ireland and northern scotland. This is how the day starts off, at 8am. Where we have the coldest weather in east anglia and the south east, thats where well have the brightest weather. Quite a lot of sunshine to come. Through the south west, wales, Northern England, thick clouds, outbreaks of mostly light and patchy rain at this stage. A lot of cloud into southern scotland. But for Northern Ireland and the northern half of scotland, something more bright. Sunny spells returning. A rash of showers up towards the north west, but because of the slightly milder air, most showers falling as rain rather than anything more wintry. Now, as we go on through the day, we take this band of cloud and these outbreaks of rain further south and east. And see the darker blue colours . That indicates the rain will turn more heavy for wales and Northern England into the afternoon. Clouding over in the south east, after the bright start. Remaining chilly here. Scotland, Northern Ireland, where we have sunshine and a few showers, temperatures getting all the way up to 7 8 degrees. During thursday night, we push this band of at this stage quite heavy rain eastwards, across england and wales. Behind it showers too, wintry showers. As we get into friday, the air will be turning colder again, those temperatures dipping away. Seven in cardiff. Some rain, sleet, and snow perhaps across the south east for a time. A few wintry showers elsewhere. But generally speaking, its High Pressure thats with us for the very start of the weekend. Thatll mean a cold and frosty start to saturday. Another frontal system in from the west. Perhaps a spell of snow in the north. Then some rain. Then a wedge of milder air, and then for the second half of the weekend, you guessed it, we get back into the colder air. Things are very much up and down through the coming days. We can sum up the weekend. It will often be windy. Well see rain at times on saturday. Something more bright and cold for most on sunday. Sunday could bring double digit temperatures in places. But with some outbreaks of rain, on sunday, it will feel colder, but it should be brighter. This is the briefing. Im victoria fritz. Our top story north korea prepares a massive military parade and says therell be no meeting with americans during the olympics in south korea. European Union Officials welcome the German Coalition deal ending months of political uncertainty. Rescuers are still hunting for more than 60 missing people after wednesdays earthquake in taiwan. And coming up in the Business Briefing fake news backlash. Uk members of parliament will question social media bosses in washington later, after calling their response so far completely inadequate. Plus shining light on the dark web the cybercriminals who traded stolen identities online and cost consumers half a billion dollars