Im stephen sackur. We are slowly and inevitably losing the generation of men who fought in and survived the last world war. Monuments to their courage and loss are dotted all around the world with many dedicated to the 55,000 young men who lost their lives serving in britains Bomber Command. Like this one in Central London dedicated to the 55,000 young men. My guest today is 96 year old George Johnny johnson, the last remaining british survivor of one of the most extraordinary and most famous Aerial Missions of world war ii, the dambusters raid. It was costly and not entirely successful so why has it become such a part of Britains National folklore . Theme music plays. George johnny johnson, George Johnnyjohnson, welcome George Johnny johnson, welcome to hardtalk. I want to begin by asking you whether you feel more pride or sadness that you are the last british dambuster . I think it is both. Pride, certainly. Thati british dambuster . I think it is both. Pride, certainly. That i am still able to support that squadron that ijoined still able to support that squadron that i joined that still able to support that squadron that ijoined that time. So many things happened in my favour, i have to remind people i am the lucky one. Iam to remind people i am the lucky one. I am still alive. It is not me, it is the squadron i represent and that is the squadron i represent and that is what i want to do for the rest of my life, the rest of the work i do, represent that squadron. Go back to 1943, you are a young bomber. Did you know what you are getting into when you and your crew were told that you were going into special training for a very special mission . Did you have any idea . None whatsoever. It was made perfectly clear that we would not know until much later and that we were not to talk to anybody about the training that we were doing all make anything about it. It was topsecret and, in the end, the inventor of this extraordinary bouncing bomb, the device that there was supposed to breach these dams in germany, he met you all, barnes wallis, before you went on the mission and i suppose it was then that you understood what was then that you understood what was going on . It was then that we had some conjecture after that meeting and the immediate one was the attacks on the german battleships because, with that system, we were actually dropping the bomb some 400 yards short of the target and it bounces across the water, hits the target and they sing. And we thought, that will give us sing. And we thought, that will give us time to release the bomb and getaway before we got into heavy defence areas and it was not until the next day, the sunday, when we went into briefing, when we found out how wrong we could be. Went into briefing, when we found out how wrong we could hem went into briefing, when we found out how wrong we could be. It was not the warships but the dams. I would be honest with you, when i read about the extraordinary demands made of the pilots and the crews and the plane itself, because you were having to fly so low and having to avoid so many different obstacles, including the church spires, electricity lines, to get to the precise point to drop the bomb is, it seems to me you and the crew surely must have felt that this was a mission that could well and in your death . It never entered our mind. That would stand, i sure, the confident injoe. Mind. That would stand, i sure, the confident in joe. The mind. That would stand, i sure, the confident injoe. The pilot . Thats right. That was the way i am sure the crew worked all the time. It got to the stage where, that low flyi ng it got to the stage where, that low flying you talked about, from my point of view, it was wonderful. I am in the most comfortable position in the aircraft, lying down all the time and the land, the ground is just whizzing past as you are going over, wonderful exhilarating experience. That is all very well when eu doing it in training but on the night itself, in may 1943 when you are doing it. It was to go after the sorpe dam and you insisted that your pilot, joe, make ten runs before he got it absolutely right in terms of positioning so you could release the bomb . In my mind and i am sure injoes as well, we did not talk about it, we were gone on a mission, a special mission. 0urjob was to make sure that we did it right. When we got to the sorpe dam and discovered what that entails, we had already been disappointed at briefing by learning we would not be using the bombing techniques we had been practising for the six weeks, but it was going to be. An estimated drop, eventually. We were not spending the bomb at all, it was going to be an inert to drop. Going to flow down without port engine off, over the dam and estimated drop the bomb as nearly as possible to the bomb as nearly as possible to the centre as we could. If i was not satisfied, i called out, ifjoe was not satisfied he pulled away and called dummy run. After the six or seven of these, a voice said will somebody get this bomb out of here and i had to realise how to become the most unpopular member of the crew in quick time but we were there to do crew in quick time but we were there todoa crew in quick time but we were there to do a specificjob and, to my mind, we had to do thatjob and i am sure the same was true as far as the joe was concerned. But they were 19 lancaster bombers involved in the dambuster raid. Eight did not come back. 56 men did not come back either. Three were captured but 53 we re either. Three were captured but 53 were killed. Thats right. More than one third of the entire crew involved in the mission. Thats right. How did you feel about the scale of the losses that your team took . Devastated at the time. Com plete took . Devastated at the time. Complete and utter shock and barnes wallis. The inventor of the bomb. Burst into tears and said, i have killed all of those young men and will never do anything like that again. Johnny, you dropped your bomb and it was a direct hit on the sorpe dam butt in the end that dam was not breached. The other two dams were destroyed and the mohne dam, when it was breached, it led to huge amounts of water filling the valley, for miles and miles top when he flew back from your sorpe dam, you saw and what did it feel like when you saw this Amazing Mission with the amazing bouncing bomb had worked, it had destroyed the mohne dam. What we re had destroyed the mohne dam. What were your feelings . To had destroyed the mohne dam. What were yourfeelings . To me it was had destroyed the mohne dam. What were your feelings . To me it was the highlight of the operation. To see the actual result of success, of pa rt the actual result of success, of part of it. We knew by radio broadcast that the mohne had been breached and that the eder had been breached and that the eder had been breached by radio broadcast but approaching the mohne or what was the mohne was like an inland sea. There was water everywhere but it was not easy. It had cost lives. Did it surprise you, the reaction to the dambuster raid . It was big news at the time. The british wartime press was so the time. The british wartime press was so pleased to have this sort of triumph to crow about and then, of course, after the war, it was perhaps the most famous single aerial mission that had been flown and it was celebrated and, of course, in the end it was made into a film. But it surprise you to a degree to which it became part of the british myth of the wall . Would think it surprise me but i have some grave misgivings about that particular period after the war. About the group of people that i call retrospective historians and there were a group of them who claimed that the dambuster raid should never have taken place, that it achieved nothing, it cost an awful lot of money in training, the special aircraft, training of the crews, danger to the crews itself, an awful lot of lives and aircraft loss as well. I would say if i have met one of those characters i hope my hands are tied behind my back was would not be quite sure what i would do to them. But dont they have a point about the dambuster raid because in the end you did breach two of the three dams and he did destroy some faq trees and some coalmines and, it should be said, you also killed more than a thousand german people. Yes, indeed. But according to senior nazis, the german war effort was not really put back very much and, in fact, they rebuilt the fact is an all of the infrastructure within five months. There were at least four reasons why it was a good rate and the first is that it showed hitler and the german hierarchy that what they thought was impregnable, the Royal Air Force could get through and destroyed. Secondly, it meant that the skilled workmen who were being employed building anti invasion walked up the coast had to be pulled in to help repair the dams and thirdly, it did some damage to the factories themselves, it did decrease as the output not as much as we would like that output not as much as we would like that it output not as much as we would like that it did decrease the output somewhat. And i think, finally, the best was the effect of the morale on the people of this country because, as you mentioned the papers, they we re as you mentioned the papers, they were full of it. And it happened so close to the success of alamein and it raised the question, isnt this the turning point of the wall . There is another way of looking at this, johnny, and it is notjust about the dambuster raid at Bomber Command in general and you, as a young soldier, we re general and you, as a young soldier, were involved in many raids and sorties in the period right across germany and italy as well. And it has to be said, hugh and your cruise we re has to be said, hugh and your cruise were responsible for the deaths of many thousands of civilians. You and your cruise. As well as military personnel and you have many years to reflect on this. Do you have in you any sense of remorse or regret or guilt for those deaths . We did not start the war. If you are threatened by war, you have to defend yourself. You have to defend your own country and you have to do it by whatever means it you can. And the example had been set by hitler himself, the way he bombed our cities, london, coventry, liverpool and the rest of them, regardless of human life or anything else. That was the sort of thing which had to be fought against and one of the ways to fight against it was reprisal of that sort of attack and that is where eventually Bomber Command became, ithink, rob lee criticised for the way they attack. Rob lee. That is why i joined, it was my way to be able to help to get back at hitler and what help to get back at hitler and what he had started with his attack on our country. He was my enemy and thatis our country. He was my enemy and that is the way it stayed the whole time. So, when you saw the broken dams and when you saw the villages being swept away by the waters, you just close your mind to the fact that civilians would be down there drowning . Crossed my at all. I begin to wonder, frankly, as a young child, i had a pretty horrible childhood. And i found child, i had a pretty horrible childhood. And ifound that child, i had a pretty horrible childhood. And i found that i was left with a father who in the first place thought i was a mistake anyway. I was the sixth, the youngest of six children. And he beat me often, regularly, and i sometimes wonder, was emotion beaten out of me at that stage . Could i feel so little at that stage . Well, here is a question about your emotions run after the war, or at the end of the war, because as i talk about Bomber Command and its role in the war, that there was an ambivalence about it. And even churchill, when he made his victory speech, he saluted the efforts of so many different branches of the military, but he did not go out of his way to salute the work of Bomber Command. No. And in some ways it seems there was a sense that Bomber Command, with particularly its targeting of civilians in dresden and hamburg and some other german cities, had gone too far. Had roque ina cities, had gone too far. Had roque in a moral code. Were you angry with churchill, that he didnt thank Bomber Command specifically . Hamburg. I was angry at churchill, a lwa ys hamburg. I was angry at churchill, always have been. But i think, since after the war, the first time we went back on a television programme, the cameraman and i were walking across the dam and said, stop here, johnny. I reckon this is where you dropped your bomb. And i stopped, looked over the side, and i was dropping that on again just like that. And then i walked over to the other side, and i saw that Lovely Valley going down there, and i said, you know, iam valley going down there, and i said, you know, i am almost glad we didnt breach this dam. Had we done so, this valley would have been com pletely this valley would have been completely ruined. 0k, it could have been rebuilt, but it would never have been the same. And it made me think more about the after effects of war, and about war itself. It didnt make me think any the less of our war effort. Something we had to fight for our own defence, that was it. Ijust want fight for our own defence, that was it. I just want to quote you the words of one historian, richard 0very, who has written a lot about Bomber Command and about the morale some of some of the decisions taken, for example the fire bombing of and hamburg. He says that we need to be open and honest that the british decision was specifically to target towns, cities and civilians, to win the war. But he says lets be honest. That was a decision taken at the top, and the air crews themselves, people like you, he says, were in many ways victims. He says, were in many ways victims. He says you were, quoting him, he says you were sent out in often appalling conditions, in poor weather, with fear in your hearts, constantly aware of the hungry presence of death, he says. Did you and do you think that, in a way, you were a victim, or is that nonsense . No, never. I. Idont victim, or is that nonsense . No, never. I. I dont rememberfeeling afraid at any time. I dont remember feeling any apprehension at any time. Thats very hard to believe. Basically, because i had joined to doa basically, because i had joined to do a job. And thatjob was all my concentration. And that was the only thing i thought about. Concentration. And that was the only thing i thought aboutlj concentration. And that was the only thing i thought about. I talked about churchill, and you said you felt anger towards churchill when he didnt thank and salute the work of Bomber Command. In fact, didnt thank and salute the work of Bomber Command. Infact, you didnt thank and salute the work of Bomber Command. In fact, you can Bomber Command. In fact, you can Bomber Command. In fact, you can Bomber Command were the one group of military personnel who were not given a military personnel who were not givena campaign military personnel who were not given a Campaign Medal right after the war. No. Does that still hurt . It does, very much so. It hurts more so now, because there is so little, in fact no respect, no recognition, of the individuals who were lost in Bomber Command, fighting for their country, fighting for freedom, Bomber Command, fighting for their country, fighting forfreedom, which we are being able to subsequently enjoyed. You have spent a lot of time talking to particularly children about your experiences. What is it, what is the message, that you want to give by taking so much time to talk to the new generation . You do ask the most awkward questions. However, here goes. What is the message i want to give . Iwant, goes. What is the message i want to give . I want, first of all, from the schools point of view, the children have a chance to appreciate the country they are living in, or why they are living in it, and what it might have been had things gone the other way. I think it is part, an essential part, of their early education, and something for them on which to think in the future. I have. Didnt Start Talking about my war until after i lost my wife. And then the children suggested that i should start, and perhaps it would stop me grieving all the time for mum, as they put it. And i thought about it, and i thought i would try it. And it worked. Do you think that you speak about it with a sense of pride in what you did, but do you also bring to it a feeling of perhaps horror, in a way, about what war is . After so long, i have. Things seem a little bit different now from what they were then. But, at that time, i thought it was necessary that we should be fighting that war, and i thought it was necessary that we should fight it the best way we could. And Bomber Command was one of the advantages of that type of thought. I feel, now, command was one of the advantages of that type of thought. Ifeel, now, i still feel, privileged, even honoured, to have taken part in the dams raid. I think that was the highlight of my operational career, andi highlight of my operational career, and i shall always remember it as such. You have three children, you have grandchildren, and you even have grandchildren, and you even have great grandchildren. Have grandchildren, and you even have greatgrandchildren. Many of them. Many of them, and i dare say you will soon have another generation following them. Do you hope, and do you believe, that a lwa ys hope, and do you believe, that always the next generation here in the uk will learn about the dambusters, and the dambuster raid . It has entered the national folklore, hasnt it . Some years ago, isaid to folklore, hasnt it . Some years ago, i said to my son, i think its time we started forgetting about these things. He said you cant forget that, dad. Thats history. Isaid i dont want to be bloody history. But ifind dont want to be bloody history. But i find now that. Dont want to be bloody history. But ifind now that. I dont want to be bloody history. But i find now that. I am amazed that the interest that has developed over the interest that has developed over the last three or four years, not only in the dams raid, but in the war itself, particularly. And it seems to me that there is still a certain amount of interest. It is still interesting to people. Good, i am glad. If they are going to forget it, that is good too. Thats up to them. But as far as i am concerned, i shall neverforget them. But as far as i am concerned, i shall never forget it, and thats really what it boils down to. It is too prominent in my mind, it was too prominent in my life at that time, and has lived with me ever since. Johnnyjohnson, we have to end there. But it has been a privilege to talk to you. Thank you very much for being on hardtalk. Thank you very much for coming, i have enjoyed it. Good morning. We have some very Stormy Weather to come in the week ahead winds often touching up to gale force, widely across the British Isles, and some heavy rain to contend with, too. Ahead of all that, actually quite quiet this morning, light winds overnight and clear skies mean for some of us it could be a frosty start. But we will then quickly watch this band of rain winging its way into the west, so the fine weather not set to last. A dry start, though, across eastern scotland, with some early sunshine. Cloudy already, though, in the west, and some rain pushing in. A wet rush hour for northern ireland. Still i think, at 8 00am, largely dry across northern england, but rain affecting many parts of wales, and also pushing into the south west. The wind picking up across the midlands and the south east. Well start to see the rain pushing its way through here pretty quickly through the morning. And chances are, if you start the day with rain, your prospects will look a lot better by the afternoon, whereas if you start fine, quite a wet spell to come for you by lunchtime, maybe even a wintry spell across the Northern Hills of england and scotland, as this weather front quickly whips its way across the British Isles. Strong winds accompanying it, too, but lighter winds through the afternoon, and there should be some spells of sunshine too. Quite mild, as well, in the south. But the quieter weather very short lived. Here is our next low, waiting to come spinning in from the atlantic, overnight tuesday into wednesday. This is quite a vicious little feature. It could even bring even severe gales to a central swathe of the British Isles. Itll be accompanied by some heavy rains, as well. Those winds could be damaging, and even as the low starts to pull away on wednesday, behind it, we continue with strong winds, and the showers that get sucked in behind the low. Very squally affairs some heavy rain, hail and thunder. And i think quite a chilly feel in the wind, despite temperatures still managing to make it into double figures to the south of the British Isles. And then, well, welljust continue really along the same line. As we look at the remainder of the week, perhaps a little quieter briefly first thing on thursday, and then another low, which is going to basically cover the British Isles for the latter part of the week. Some more rain to come, more strong winds, and then potentially, at the very end of the week, turning colder. Thursday, wettest and windiest towards the south and west. Perhaps some drier and brighter weather towards the north east, somewhat chillier here, however. And then friday, well, for all of us, strong winds. Therell be some heavy rain, as well, perhaps the worst of the winds across the Central Region of the British Isles. But no matter where you are, i think, no escaping the Stormy Weather in the week ahead. 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