Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. When the Spanish Government threw out the Regional Administration in catalonia, imposed direct rule from madrid and called regional elections, it took a calculated risk. Next month well see whether it was well advised. If catalans give a clear majority to Pro Independence parties, spain and the European Union will be facing a protracted crisis. My guest is spains minister for eu affairs, jorge toledo. Can madrid outmanoeuvre the secessionists . Theme music jorge toledo, in madrid, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you very much. You presumably want the forces of unity, the Political Parties backing the integrity of spain as it currently exists, you want them to win, dont you . Well, i do. But that is by personal opinion but that is not up to me. There is a regional election, this is is democracy. The catalan people will in a perfectly legal, perfectly organised, monitored election, chose as they wish. Indeed, but my point is this, if you want the forces supporting unity to win, why dont you make it a little bit easierfor those parties by acknowledging the grave mistakes that madrid made in the run up to and on the day of the catalan referendum on independence . Surely that would help, if you actually said, you know what . We did make some terrible errors . Well, i do not need anybody. I do not need to acknowledge any mistakes. We all make mistakes but the biggest mistake here was to revoke by simple majority of the Regional Government, on the 6th and 7th of september, jumping over every legality, even their own legality, they revoked the basis of the rights and freedom of all catalans in catalonia. That was the biggest mistake. So let me criticise the mistakes, the great mistakes and the great damage they have done to catalonia, economically, socialfracture. The other day we lost a very good candidate to barcelona because of this. Listen, this is the big issue. The damage that the independentist government and the independentist forces have done to catalonia and this is going to be. We are going to recover from this because the first you need is legal certainty. 2700 companies have left catalonia because of this. We want them to go back and for that they need legal certainty. When you revoke every legality, when you do not even follow your own legality, nobody wants to go to your place so lets restore legality and then we can build together. If i may interrupt you forjust a second, i asked you for any acknowledgement of your mistake. Dont you worry, we will talk to the catalan Regional Government, as it was, about the things they did but i need to press the you for things you did. For example, was it wise for you to use such powerful and polarising rhetoric, when you they called the referendum that they held in catalonia and im quoting you directly an evil illegal act. Why on earth did you call it evil . These are just civilians conducting a vote. No, it wasnt civilians conducting a vote. It was a governmentjumping over every, even their own regional law, the basis of legitimacy, breaking their own law, to approve convening a referendum which they knew was illegal. That is evil. That is not democracy. You cannot jump over your own democratic laws. Evil . You change it by a simple majority, thats evil. 0k, evil, its illegal. Illegal in a democratic world. Evil is a word that indicates something about the mindset that the government in madrid seems to have. Another thing thing that indicates your mindset is sending in Security Forces to stop peaceable men and women from voting, dragging them by their hair, beating them up. Human Rights Groups reporting that there were dozens of people who had injuries as a result. Again, if you were to say sorry for that, it might change the political atmosphere in the run up to the december 21st vote. Will you do that . Listen, i am sorry and we all regret that there were people injured. As far as we know, there were two people in hospital, one with a heart attack, and we have unchecked reports about being injured but two people in hospital and thats regrettable but the Police Forces were sent there by a judge, a catalan judge by the way, to enforce a court order. They used force and there were in about 2,200,000 people there were two people in hospital. That is regretful. I am sorry for that, im sorry for the people who got injured but. It would help if you were truthful about the real extent of the injuries. For example, the hague centre for strategic studies did a survey of what happened and they found that hundreds of voters had been injured on polling days and they concluded with these words, the use of force displayed by the Spanish Police has no place in an established democracy. The use of force was done under court orders in the face of resistance and violent and Violent Attacks against the police. They were 45 policemen injured. So in 2,200,000 there were two people in hospital, one with a heart attack. It is regretful. Regional administration who are languishing in spanishjails right now, including, of course, 0rioljunqueras, the former Vice President of the Regional Government. He has described the situation inside his prison, he says, communication with the outside world is very limited, we can only talk for 50 minutes each week on the phone. I have not yet seen my children. Youre a democrat, you live in spain, how do you feel about locking up, again, i say it, civilian politicians who are pursuing their political agenda with an elected mandate from their voters and you lock them up in these conditions . How do you as a democrat feel about that . I tell you how i feel about that. I have my own opinion. You say you locked them up. No, it is a judge who has locked them up, as you say, they have put them in provisional prison for committing crimes, because they are accused of committing serious crimes. It is the judge in a democratic country like spain or the uk who puts people injail, especially provisionally. These people are accused of serious crimes and these people have the same rights, i suppose, as any person who is in jail. I do not think they can complain of having worse or better treatment than anybody else, in fact, i think they are in one of the most modern prisons in spain, and they have many facilities so i do not agree with that. If you are a democrat, mr toledo, doesnt it trouble you that with the vote on december 21 looming and mrjunqueras and others wanting to put themselves forward to the public for election, it seems very troubling that they are still locked up. Why do they need to be locked up, why cant you at least give them their freedom because they are not convicted of anything . Give them the freedom so at least they can participate in the political process . You know, in spain, in the uk, the one who puts people in prison is a judge and the one who decides to put them out of prison is a judge. I could have my opinion, it would be more comfortable politically if they were not in prison but this is not our call, this is not the governments call. In a democracy, in the uk it is the same thing, we cannot put these people in prison, it would be a judge. In fact, they have appealed the court order that put them in prison, it will be reviewed by the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court will decide probably in the next few days so well see but the government cannot do anything. These people were not put in prison because of what they think, because they are independentist, mrjunqueras has been and independentist all his life, he has been accused of committing crimes. He can defend himself with all the guarantees and, if proven guilty, he will go or not to jail depending on what the judge says not depending on what the government says. Thats very important. Lets get to the head of government, mr rajoy, i wonder what his message is to the people of catalonia today, what is he offering catalans in terms of a response to the political situation in the region which suggests madrid is listening and madrid is prepared to offer something to the people of the region to give them more power, a sense that madrid is prepared to meet them at least halfway in their desire for more autonomy, more Regional Power . You must know that catalonia is probably the region with other regions in spain which has the most powers. No, no, that is not true. That is not true, mr toledo, i cant let you get away with that. Because we know that, for example, i can name you two regions, right now the basque region and navarre they both have much more significant tax raising and fiscal powers than catalonia. You know that. No, no, catalonia has all the powers which they do not have. Anyway, catalonia has never had so much power and we can discuss that. We can discuss fiscal arrangements. In fact, president rajoy has invited so many times the then president puigdemont to come and discuss in the commission, to discuss the fiscal territorial arrangement and they do not come. President rajoy has offered to discuss 45 different complaints that effect real life for real people in catalonia and they have refused. President rajoy is offering first of all to restore the legality, to restore self government, have election and, with a new Catalan Government he will be open for discussing any thing and if they wanted change the constitution, we have our legal framework, they have to propose that in parliament, they have to conduct political dialogue because, stephen sackur, where do you conduct political dialogue in a democracy . It has to be in parliament. President rajoy has always been and always will be open to dialogue. We have opened a commission for discussing, if we need, and what we need, to reform our constitution and that is the place to discuss it. Be clear about one thing, then, neither of us knows how this election is going to work out on december 21st, but if those parties clearly backing independence win a clear majority in the new Regional Government and the latest opinion polls i have seen suggest the party in the lead, right now is mrjunquerass party, the gentleman ive just talked about with his erc party, which is entirely committed to independence, it looks like the vote is going to be very close but if the forces of independence win, will you accept that that represents a legitimate mandate for the catalan Regional Government to push on with their quest for secession and independents it will be a mandate . No, i dont accept that. In order to do that they will have to go present themselves in madrid, at the Spanish Parliament were all spaniards are represented and the presentation of all spaniards decide what their country is. The fundamental thing here, which is missing is, why, where is it written, not in the spanish constitution or in International Public law, that a part of a country can decide what the whole country is . It is also personal for me. I want to decide what my country is. Why should anyone deprive me from voting in the end orfrom giving my opinion of my country . The definition of my country. You know, we have a constitution that was approved by 91 of catalans, which is very clear about this. It is very clear and it says that what the country is, what spain is, has to be decided by all spaniards. Interesting, and i am not sensing any movement or compromised in your answers, but it is interesting to note that in 2006 the constitutional agreement that spain signed up to did talk of a catalan nation. You are now, it seems, not prepared to recognise any notion of Self Determination for the people of catalonia. I would just suggest to you that if this vote goes the way of the independence parties, you are going to have a crisis in spain and the European Union will probably begin to lose patience with the madrid government that is not prepared to talk the language of compromise. Well, that is your opinion. It is not my opinion. These kinds of things cant happen in europe, in the European Union any more. The European Union has a treaty. We have all signed to this treaty. It says that the European Union, meaning the european institutions and the european countries, Member States, have to respect Constitutional Order of the Member States. It would not be possible in france, it would not be possible in germany. In italy the Constitutional Court revoked a law in some of the italian provinces calling for a referendum of Self Determination. The only difference with the Catalan Government and those Regional Government in italy is that the Regional Government in italy accepted the court ruling. The Regional Government in catalonia didnt. It is a question, it is not a question of law and democracy. What is the law in a democratic world . Is the expression of democratic dialogue. You want to change the constitution, come, propose it, if you have enough support we will change it. We will all be able to vote. Mr toledo, let us move on to another issue which is very much in your portfolio, given that you are responsible for eu affairs. That is the state of the brexit negotiations. The British Government is very keen to see the eu move on to the next phase of brexit negotiations when the European Council meets in december. The british say they have done enough on the various first phase issues to move to the really big deal, which is talking about the future trade relationship. Do you, in spain, see enough progress made for you and your government to back a move to the second phase of the brexit negotiations . Well, negotiations are under way as we talk. And will be under way for the next week or ten days. I hear there is some progress. There was not enough progress last time we met at the European Council. There was some positive steps, i must say, taken by Prime Minister may that were acknowledged and we in spain acknowledge them. We think that we need a deal and we think we are getting closer. But we need something more. And the British Government knows. Let me, let me try to make this quick. We dont have that much time. I will try to make it quick. Let us get to specifics. Start with the money. In brief, theresa may and her cabinet appeared to have sanctioned now, offering the eu roughly a0 billion euros as a financial settlement as part of the recent deal, is that enough, yes or no . No. It is not that it is not enough. We are not looking for a figure. We are looking for a commitment to honour past commitments. We dont have to agree on a figure at this stage. We had to agree on principles to arrive at a figure when the final deal is made. All right. Next issue. It is very pressing in recent days with a difficult relationship developing between the British Government and the Irish Government. The Irish Government says it will veto any move to the next phase of negotiations, unless the uk government is entirely clear about how it is going to avoid a hard border between northern ireland, which of course remains part of the united kingdom, and the republic of ireland, which, of course, is a member state of the European Union. Do you feel that enough progress has been made on that issue . In that we back our irish, our republic of ireland friends. I know that Prime Minister may and the uk want the same solution, that we have no border between the republic of ireland and northern ireland. We all want the good friday agreement to survive brexit and we want the common travel area. We have to find solutions. And our irish friends tell us we need some more commitment. So we will trust them there. If im allowed. The British Government is also blaming the irish and saying that the irish are playing politics with the border issue. You seem to be suggesting to me that there is absolute unity among all of the Member States of the European Union, excluding britain, of course, unity and that this is not a case of ireland playing politics, you all, right now, do not believe that the uk has offered enough on the border. Is that what you are saying . I was in dublin last week. My irish colleagues told me that they need some more concrete commitment. So i am willing to trust them there. They know what its all about, i know what its all about, but i prefer to trust them and negotiator barnier. We have given a mandate to negotiator barnier, which is quite clear. We trust our irish, and barnier, colleagues on that. We know that the uk is also interested in preserving the good friday agreement. I think we can get an agreement soon. A final point about brexit, which is taking us back to catalonia, in a way. The scottish nationalist movement, and of course they are in government in scotland in their government, they are keen to hold after brexit a second Scottish Independence referendum. If they win, it does look as though there is a strong possibility scotland might, before too long, be an independent nation. If that were to be the case, and they applied for membership to the European Union after the uk had exited from the European Union, would spain welcome scotland into the European Union . Mr sackur, there are too many ifs in your question. Allow me not to respond clearly to the question. If, if, if. This thing about referendums and Self Determination referendums. My personal view, it is a never endum. We will respect the uk legality. If theres a legal referendum, we will have nothing to say about it. And i hope the Scottish Government has the same respect for our constitution that we have for their constitution. All right, well, i think i am reading between the lines there. I will end with one big thought about the European Union. It is your portfolio. I think it is fair to say that there are lots of big visions around. We had Jean Claude Juncker outlining a very ambitious vision for a more integrated, united europe, we had Emmanuel Macron talking about the necessity for europe to develop much closer financial integration with a financial minister, a finance minister. Some beginnings of pan european taxation, a defence force. But at the same time, there is a massive leadership problem. Angela merkel is in trouble. Your Spanish Government is weak, it has corruption scandals as well as the catalonia problem. Mr macron is not very popular. Where is the leadership that will make these dreams of a powerful, integrated eu into reality . I tell you something, spain has always been a very pro european country, except some, like mr puigdemont, who was insulting European Union yesterday. We will be among the most ambitious. We had gone through a very, very difficult crisis, economic crisis in spain, we are now growing. We will get over this catalan constitutional crisis. Legality has been restored. We will be the leading, the deepening of the European Union. I can assure you of that. We have to end there. Butjorge toledo, in madrid, thank you very much for being on hardtalk. Thank you very much to you. I hope next time, if there is a next time, it will be face to face. Thank you. Hello. If tuesday was too cold for you, i dont think youre going to find much comfort in the forecast for the next couple of days. If anything, it will get even colder. Northerly winds diving all the way down from the arctic, the air turning increasingly cold, and with that, some wintry showers feeding in across northern and eastern areas. Now, where the showers will have been falling through the night across northern scotland, there is the risk of some icy stretches. Could be some ice across eastern england, as well. Temperatures here generally holding just above freezing through the first part of the morning. Many of the showers at low levels falling as rain. But, over high ground, dont be surprised to see some sleet and some snow. And then further west, through the midlands into the west country, largely dry, with some early sunshine. A cold start, though, quite a widespread frost here. The odd shower into West Cornwall and west wales, as well. These will continue through the day. For much of wales, dry, bright, but very cold, with a frost to start off the morning. Some showers into northern ireland, some of these could be wintry. A widespread frost. Notice the haze of blue. Wintry showers towards the north east. As we move out a wednesday and into thursday, this area of low pressure will try to squash in from the east. That will squeeze the isobars together. It means the wind will get stronger. Windy across the east coast of scotland and england. We will see showers. Even at fairly low levels the showers could bring some snow. Sunshine elsewhere. This is what you can expect it to do you like on thursday afternoon. Some you like on thursday afternoon. Showers out west, lot some showers out west, generally a lot of crisps sunshine. This is what it will feel like thursday afternoon. Subzero in many places. For friday, still some showers which could be wintry initially across the south east and a band of showery rain into the north west. The time being, things remain chilly, even when we get some sunshine. Into the weekend, things will temporarily turn a little milder. A lot of trial dry weather with some patchy rain at times. This is the briefing. Im sally bundock. 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