Kerry about the consequences of Congress Voting down this deal. I heard the frustration that the idea is that there is no choice. In fact, i hear you say the opposite. I hear you say that this is not, in fact, a referendum on this deal. This is a choice between two set of consequences a set of consequences that flow forward if we arrive the deal, and then a different set that flows norward if Congress Rejects this deal. And so, as i look at that second set of consequences, that we have to be fully cognizant of, if the United States Congress Rejects this deal, i see it in five parts and i want to give this analysis to you, and ask you where i am wrong or right. First the sanctions are going to fray. Russians and chinese wont continue to sign on. And in time will fall apart. Second, they will resume full operation of the program it gets closer and closer to the break out time. Three,. It frankly ends for the next year and a half theres no legitimacy, with the clear indication that Congress Wont support any agreements that this administration enters into. And fifth, the potential that internally this rejection of the deal will be a major victory for the hardliners making it muchless likely that hay will win in the next election meaning there may not be anyone to deal with should we get back to the table. Thats a pretty severe set of consequences. But this isnt a referendum, this is a choice, and if you reject this deal, then you have to be pretty apocalyptic about how badly this will go down. If you accept those brad alternatives. Tell me how you read this. Well e senator, i think you have hit the nail on the head, be a series of absolutely charlie anticipatable consequences. And i would agree with what you have said. This is not a case of no choices. Theres a choice. And as senator murphy has said, each person can make the judgement about the consequences of their choice. But, the choice is really between the assurances we have that come with this agreement, the certainty that comes with a limitation of of enrichment for 15 years. You cant make a bond with just those two items let alone the reduction the limitation of spending, the Intrusive Inspections all of that goes away. So thats a choice, but what else happens . Well, i urge colleagues that havent done it, to spend time with our intel community, and ask for the analysis of the state of politics in iran. The Supreme Leader highly distrust us, and we distrust in return, theres nothing built on trust. It is all a matter of verification. But they feel like i cant deal with the west, because i dont trust them, i tried it before, and then there were small discussions that took place in afghanistan a number of years ago. Nothing came out of it. I can give you i wont go through the whole history but theres a long history of mistrust, and much deeper than that, the whole context of the revolution, out of which the regime comes. So if we say no after saying in good faith we are here no negotiate and we can come to an agreement but we walk away from it, not because we chose to but you choose to, they wont know who to deal with and a lot of other people wont know who to deal with, but more importantly he is not coming back. Theres no way people who say get a better deal, no way. When they believe they have given up things in good pave and made proclamations about no Nuclear Weapon fresh, and they are willing to be subject to the npt. It is art the heart of nonprelip Ration Centers we have 198 nations that live by it. Thats part of what this road would be, we dont like the n, theb, no way they can come under it we wont do this so the con wednesdays are even more than what you layed out and here is what else happens. I know this will happen. Been around politics long enough, i have a pretty good sense, a lot of people are out there of poeting this before it was announced. A lot opposing it before they read it. So i know what we will hear if if this isnt agreed to, doesnt meet approval and the sanctions are gone, and iran goes back you can hear the human cry right now. People will say what are we going to do about it, you will hear the Prime Minister of israel saying time to bomb, what are we going to do . Thats whey learned people that led security establishments in israel, say thats probably the alternative here. So when they are enriching like crazy and we passed up diplomacy, and the nonproliferation treaty, what is lest . I know therefore senators that are upset about it, what is your plan . Knock out their entire capacity . Erase their memory of how to do a fuel cycle . Totally go to war. I heard people mention iraq, that we had huge ability to know what was going there that was after we invaded the country, and completely defeated their army, yeah, then we had knowledge. Thats the only place you have it. No country in the world has anyone ear time. So just be reasonable. There are many consequences than thosed late out but each one he layed out are consequential. Senator murphy, if i can respond, i agree with you that sanctions would fray, but i think in addition, we have had a lot of discussion about the reserves we have to remember those are not sitting in the United States, they are sitting around the world in ones like india and china, and if this falls apart, our ability to keep that money from iran will also fall apart. So the concern they get their agreement, and theres no nuclear agreement, so thats very real. And with regard to the comment on our ability to reimpose sanctions i agree with you if it is seen as a pretext for putting Nuclear Sanctions back in place them that violates the agreement but we have reserved the ability to put sanctions back in place. There is inherent fuzziness. It is a matter of interpretation, which is why people can say they have different views it is not as if this was some accidental provision the thought process you walked through is very helpful, and i do want to say that congress did put in place many of the sanctions that brought iran to the table and what i think is to a dre unfair about the presentation is the secretary afforded himself the ability to walk away and face these same consequences you said that no deem was better than a bad deal, so you yourself had to be thinkability about going down the very path that snow cover senator murphy just came out what you did by going to the Security Council and laying this out even though we put mandates in place that brought them to the table you are trying to paint this picture that takes that choice away from us the choice would have been the same if the Security Council votes and the great distinction here, with all due respect, sir, the great distinction here is that when i was ready to walk away everybody else would have come with me, because they understood. So we would have walked away and held the unity of the sanctions and we could have then done more, or if we had to resort to military, people would have understood why the problem is now they wont understand why, and we wont walk away. And i dont want to put too much emphasis on the u. N. Security council. But i will go back to the other and say that again the way you present the options you have put congress in the place of being the crier. And i think the way you frame it, put i dont think in a very unfair light. Senator purdue. I am outraged. Before we even have a chance to read the discussions in a good faith manner we are showing the world we dont stand together. And thats what this is about. Thats why we fought in the last few months and i am so encouraged that we ended up with a unanimous vote, and 981 vote to go back to the balance of power between the legislative and executive branch. I am encouraged that senator cane is here sitting here for three hours this morning four hours listening to this, people are involved in this, and i appreciate what you guys have done. This is a yo mens job you have done, a huge task, mr. Secretary you have been hurt, thank you for all your effort ire have tries to take a very measures approach, to try to understand what we were trying to achieve but i am troubled today, i look at this skeptical because i am not sure what i said was humorous, but let me read you a couple of quotes. This agreement will help to achieve a long standing objective, an to end the threat of nuclear proliferation. 1994. President bill clinton. President obama, iran will never be allowed to develop a Nuclear Weapon president clinton, compliance will be certified by the International Atomic agency. President obama, what we are going to do is setting off mechanism whereby yes i. A. E. I. Inspectors can go abe place. This agreement represents the first step on a road to a nuclear free Korean Peninsula president obama. Is this frame work would cut off every path way that iran could possibly take to develop a Nuclear Weapon i am unsettled because we have had bad experiences dealing with bad actors. If i look at this today you said something today i havent heard you say before, and i want to dial into this. We are guaranteeing they wont have a Nuclear Weapon. I know thats the goal. I have read every page of this document, i have seen the classified documents. I am concerned as i read this, the deal, i understand our object i and our intent, is to never allow iran to have a Nuclear Weapon, my question is does this deal preclude iran from becoming a Nuclear Weapon state. Is senator, first of all i appreciate your approach to this. And i very much appreciate your comments. And im i know you will taking this very seriously as are other senators. And i want to speak specifically to your questions. First of all i believe and i have spent 29 years on this committee, baaing in the early days of the missle debates and i. N. F. , and europe, and start, and so forth. This i believe is one of the most extensive agreements with the most extensive access provisions and accountability standards i have seen in the time that i was here. And i believe we have put in place a highly distinguishable set of measures from north korea. First of all, north korea during the eight years of the clinton administration, they didnt gain one owns overplay tune yum. What they did do is started cheating on the highly enriched path. And the frame work was put in patriot, and the administrations changed and the new administration came in with a different attitude, about how to approach them but with the discovery of the cheating on the h. E. U. , they immediately shut down the track, and north korea pulled out of the mtp. Fully pulled out. There were no inspections nothing else was happening and yes they blew up several Nuclear Weapons and they developed their Nuclear Capacity that should be a warning to everybody here. About why what we have in fact put in place is so important and out to be embraced because unlike north korea the north korea experience is what gave birth to the Additional Protocol. I just want you to know that p the Additional Protocol came to remedy the deficit of what happened with north korea. So the access we have, we never had in north korea. And i believe through the myriad of access, Civil Nuclear program 24 7 access to their fa salt lake cities we will know instantaneously if they try to prove. I understand. And i heard you say that last night. If they do we will know but does the deal. I believe if the agreement is fumuli implemented and if iran lives by it, yes. With regard to the options what brought them to the table what is the mow ty in the first place . Senator, i cant tell you the specific thing, but we look at the impact of the sanctions it is crush irans economy, crushed it in every day. Reduced it about 20 . The size is down, the Exchange Rate is terrible, the inflation rates are sky high. So the concern i have when they came to the table we seeded to them the right to enrich. The right to potentially bypass 18 countries who are good actors on the world stage, and join an elite group of five countries that have Civil Nuclear programs but dont enrich. There are Nine Countries that have Nuclear Weapons. Five in the mtb, four out they obviously have civil programs and enrich, but the difference here between the countries that are good players, germany, brazil afghanistan, im sorry argentina, holland japan we are putting iran into that group. A bad actor my question is, what the option i see is doubling down on the sanctions that got them here in the first place we know it was crushing their economy we know it was having tremendous impact on their regime, and my question is is that not a viable option today as we look at alternatives to the deal itself . Senator i think the reason the sanctions have had the powerful effect is that they are not just u. S. Sanctions they have been international and that requires keeping an International Coalition together to impose the kinds of tough sanctions that we have had in past debates we have gone back and forth with congress saying if you do more and it keeps other countries out then we are in the end doing less, and we have come to a good place on the rounds to grow the coalition, if this deal is rejected the other partner whose have helped us to impose those, will not be of like mind. Of the 115 billion you have identified and i understand the nuances of the different categories how much is that relative to our secondary sanctions on other countries dealing with iran verses the eu and other players. I would have to go back and look at numbers. These are irans resources. I understand, but i am trying to make the clinician between what are the sanctions what is the percentage due to u. S. Sanctions conferencal sanctions verses the p five plus one. It is hard to separate, because our sanctions are as effect i as they are because we get the cooperation of other countries and i will tell you is we have had for years now where it is getting harder and harder to keep countries ties to the Oil Sanctions for example becauses the hard on their economy. They have been willing to do it because the goal of the sanctions was to get iran to the table. Clearly would they be willing to do it if iran came to the negotiating table and we reject add deal that all the other cubs have signed on to, thats where our sanctions ability starts to fray. Thank you mr. Chairman. Senator cane. Thank you to the witnesses. You are watching lye coverage of the Foreign Relations Committee Hearing on the iran nuclear deal, i want to check in with our correspondent who has been covering this from capitol hill. Libby, we are more than three hours in most of the members have spoken at this point. Give us the highlights as you see them. Stephanie we have heard from david purdue who is a freshman senator, someone thats that traveled internationally, and he sums up what we are hearing he was very critical of the fact that the Obama Administration went to u. N. Earlier this week, and that congress doesnt have a bigger role. But at the same time he is asking real questions. How effective have sanctions been and do we lose power. How he expects this to all unfold. And so we are hearing a push back from republicans some more fiery than others. Domes while they have asked questions they havent thrown a lot of fiery rhetoric around. With the exception of senator robert menendez. That was to be expected. It is important to note, the partisan aspects of this, because the Obama Administration really needs to get democrats onboard so that they can have some allies here as Congress Votes in a couple of months whether to approve or disprove of what is happening today. Stephanie. Just to that point, the Administration Needs 34 votes i understand, or 104 in the house to assure that a veto sticks and that a twothirds majority was not be able to overturn that. If indeed the Republican Led Congress decides to disapprove of the iran deal, libby casey, thank you, we will take a quick break we will be right back with more live coverage on the iran nuclear deal. This is a great place to work. Not because they have yoga meetings and a juice bar. Because theyre getting comcast business internet. Comcast business offers convenient installation appointments that work around your schedule. And it takes done. About an hour. Get reliable internet thats up to five times faster than dsl from the phone company. Call 8005016000 to switch today. Perks are nice. But the best thing you can give your business is comcast business. Comcast business. Built for business. Welcome back to al jazeera. On the iran nuclear deal. Its still happening. They are more than three hours in. I just want to take a break from the hearing for a second to talk to our ghosts. He does bring a unique perspective to our coverage of this. Notice of all, thank you for being with us. One thing that continues to come up, in the debate frankly on both sides of the ail, is that iran is put a bad actor that it does not have the right to enrich uranium even for civilian purposes. How do iranians view that . Is it a point of National Pride that they should be allowed to continue to enrich uranium . That they should be allowed to keep the facilities and not have i. A. E. A. Independent their sites . Well, definitely on the iranian government side, this is something that the government all parts of the iranian power, have been in consensus, but even on the average iranian on the population side, having a Peaceful Nuclear program, in according with International Laws is just something that iranians not just a sense of National Pride, but also a right saying that some are trying to take away from them, they see it as similar to that and also lets not forget that irans neighbors who have even accessed Nuclear Weapons israel, is a case that a lot always mentions rah a double standard, of a u. S. Ally. They havent sign the n. T. P. , so it is something that the program itself, is also a double standard. Your hear that phase, i want to taj you on that, because israel has never called for wiping iran off the map. Iran continues to. I would say the hardliners have been calling this something that the moderates have been challenging. But to be fair, on the other side, on the israeli hardliner sign, not wiping off the map. For all kinds of military intervention, the for knock loor sites or other reason, israel has been indirectly involved in assassination of Nuclear Scientists which is something that iranians directly accused israelis of having to be doing in iran. It is just its been direct or indirect fight that has been going on, of course, they are so much more sophisticated about it. They are very direct ununsophisticated. Be uh the bottom line is, this is something that the moderates are challenging. So with this deal, the moderates in power, will have a upper hand to challenge all sorts of these extremist policies just had better opinions within the power structure, and for iran in the region with its neighbors. Thank you domestic politics of course, playing into this debate on both sides. Both in iran and in the United States. Lets go back to listening in to the Senate Hearing the senator from georgia right now speaking. I do want to make a couple of things Crystal Clear and i speak for myself as well. You said this has unprecedented transparency from a inspection. Holding iran accountability is that correct. With the exception of the iraq war, yes. Do you recall the debate on the new star treaty . Somewhat. We were involved in that pretty heavily. That was missiles and theres a distinction between missiles and nuclear program. But i know we had shorter period for access to missle, it is a different deal. But what got the twothird maz jordy that ratified the new start treaty was satisfaction to the senate that the inspection regiment was quick decide i, and the United States had access to look and verify what the russians had told us. Correct. On a missile. Thats correct. But it was a very per case of an agreement. I understand. This agreement, as i understand it, the i. A. E. A. Is the inspector. Principle 23479 tor, we are obviously and all of our intelligence communities are following it. But they are the principal and identified inspector. We pay 25 across as i understand it . Correct, it is. And the treaty specifically said none of the inspectors can be americans is that correct. In this particular thing yes. Those 2 points i raise is why people raise questions in terms of the option ins whether they are unprecedented in transparency, and i will just leave that the for you to respond with, i think you have to deal with it deeper than you have today. I am happy to there are a lot of reasons not the least of which we dont have diplomatic relations with iran. Which is one of the principal reasons that we cant proceed to have inspectors and so forth. The start treaty had specific locations identified in it. Prelocated. This inspection is for things that we cant prelocate. These are for what we might suspect what the start inspections to declare a location, we have that. We have declared location in start, declared location here. What is unprecedented here, which we negotiated and we got it, is this ability for us to be 80 to close out the i. A. E. A. Process. The reason we are here today is that the i. E. A. E. Could not get infinished. They would fight and go back and forth nothing closed it out. We have the ability through the joint commission here, to vote go to the u. N. Security council, and mandate they give us access, and they havent they are in material breach and we get snap back of the sanctions. So theres awe auto metalistty to this that doesnt agree in other agreements
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