Well explore these and all the issues with, i guess, and just the moments time, the 1st, the support by culture lopez or the china is looking for more friends in europe and hungry is looking for investors strategically it appears they found their match on the last stop of his 5 day visit to europe, president tutoring thing, and Prime Minister victor or bon signed several agreements and put a pass to boost their economic ties from funding during jobs shown fund and done it. The well strength and Development Strategies deep and cooperation and economy and trade, investment and finance will postpone with the construction of t projects such as the budapest bell great railway. This construction site, an eastern hungry, reflects the partnership. On a 1000000000. 00 chinese factory that will produce lithium for electric vehicle batteries, chinese batteries for chinese cars to be sold inside the European Union. In a corner make a judge correspond to we used to live in a one cent a world older. But now we live in a multi center. Well, one of the pillars of this new world order is the republic of china, which now defines the costs of wealth and economic politics. So you need because stuff. In fact, most recently, both countries have faced resistance from the European Union with their support of russias war and ukraine, fueling those tensions. Im at a strain relationship with the was some say china is using hungry as a bridge to tap into the european market. Chinas push to strengthen ties with Eastern European countries include serbia, its set to become the 1st european country in the years to enter a Free Trade Agreement with aging and july. Cheese visit as seen as a sign of defiance to the west, nato and the European Union. Some and serbia are concerned about the partnership. I generally think that the from forwarding investors in serbia, this country cannot profits for most of them are looking for just to extract profits. And Chinese Companies are not any different. Much of western europe remain skeptical. Despite a bid to warm ties with friends, there were reportedly no major concessions on trade or Foreign Policy during cheese meeting with president and manuel my crohn access to europe and markets and the war and ukraine remain sticking points. You know, coming to the memo, we get into this, our memorial friendship only has meaning if it means a helping hand to pull a few minutes. He and all of the twins which faces and select basic as well as geo political, who despite tensions with the west, china wants to solidify its economic footprint in europe through new partnerships. But its unclear in the long run whether such ties will help or hurt its new partners. Capielo priscilla again alj a 0 for insight story. The wireless brain, ill get some paging david mind the founder and chairman of mine, china, he advises multi nationals on that. China strategy and expansion. Steve sang, directs the so Us China Institute to the university of london today. Hes joining us some dont think im in the u. K. Im from bell grade. Then id stick ej a Research Fellow with the think tank. The institute of International Politics economics a very well welcome to all 3 of you. Welcome to inside story today, but i wonder if i can start with you in recent news. Your relationship with china has come to be known as a quote arrival competitor partner relationship. It seems like a contradiction in terms. What do we mean by it . I think it is a contradiction in terms of your individual countries and Companies Want to trade with china, but of some other tremendous pressure from the us to restrain themselves and doing so. And because of the need for support in fighting in the or supporting the the im, hes crazy and i me against the russian invasion americans. Leverage is much greater than 0. So shes trip is important because it needs to try and recover a relationship that has begun to atrophy under us pressure. Oh no, no. Do you agree with that . Can you be both partners and rivals . Definitely for us. And we havent because that is the stapleton presidency, but your opinion is going to take, i think the most important parts of contemporary china security do not want to security, but for employees as well. So definitely for china, in your opinion, include the both authors whos rivals, depending on what kind of area of social life. But we are referring to, if you have a set of friends and security phenomena that are joining universally used or in ukraine, i definitely believe that there are some avenues to which both sides can corporate to the future. Worse a. Hi steve. I wonder if we can start with president. Shes a presence in front because the president , a manual macro made no secret of the fact that he wants friends to defend its political and economic ties, which china is above. Sentiment truly reciprocated, though by paging well, it is something to be seen very much appreciate. I live, in fact, the chinese Foreign Policy approach has always been guided by what stay cool to unite to fund of coach. The united front is just about it was most sophisticated. The mind and who approach ever when germany was on the angular local, china is peace, both part and the last whole ways too many was seems to get a pen you the end. But we could change a government in germany, france and the press, the mac strong has becomes the most trying the friendly of the big e u member of space. And thats why they have turned their focus on working with from biggest problems is more we set to go to the chinese approach and the choice of the 3 locations. We Country School visit very much. We faxed the washington being, feels comfortable with what steve has had to that very close thing is that he believes the looking behind. All of this is by much a divide and conquer policies of a cynical way of looking at chinas presence in europe. Recently, in the states perspective, that i respect very much steves knowledge of china, id say from someone who live in virginia of being here for the last 40 years that seems suddenly united front or even the china has a leverage that it well step. So mentioned that has isnt so strong. I think the issues here a very come on much. Why dont we things are china really wants to make sure always that its largest trading pilot euro remains. So the compatibility between the European Countries economies and china is, is, is very good, it remains and theres tremendous cost potential for that. Whereas the american relationship was 4 d p by the g, a political tensions. And you kind of know youre on a path towards sorts. Winds, you know, politics becomes the greater driver rather than economics, where as i think and here of its still in economic issues. And when we look at the situations that chinas assessing, such as building vehicle plants and countries like hungry, heres an option that people try to read some venue. Not just use a platform in europe for cheap labor, but actually transfer technology for real passions. So the challenge for china was to take things a different way. And i think by a considering to do that, they have a need to because they think very much contain these days. Not just following on from what we just had given all the value that china could potentially bring to europe. Just remodel view is around the table there in paris wasnt just the manual. My chrome was also a slave on the land. The head of the european commission, she was the sending the common e you message, but how united is b e u. When it comes to china, a deputy with not subscribe back to the stance that china intends to divide and conquer europe. Footboard especially European Union. On the contrary, that this trial, actual meeting that said you beach has helped with mccomb and also slip on the line and also please dont forget to jump in general of shots was in the visit to to badging a few weeks ago. Also, and then to you, prior to this visits to, to friends and all the shots and mccomb shift gathered together to unify, to solidify their senses towards the china. So i think that actually the European Unit is really, really trying to speak with one single voice. I guess again in the needs policy to us, china and china really respects this kind of cooperation between parents. And apparently i would also say, so this is why i disconnected to my stance is why in china believes that to your opinion is going to take indeed the top, the top of your time though its a Foreign Policy in the near future. Yeah, interesting that you bring up in the absence of things you have and shawn slow left shelves. So i wonder what that says about the sensitivity surrounding the you and china relations at the moment. I tell you, but i wonder how the reported rise in cases all of china, spying on european states. Human rights record in china, the treatment tells the minority muslim, we goes in china. How one of these issues complicate the desire amongst some of your pay and states to forward deeper relations with china. And they certainly make it more difficult of all countries style and everyone all the time. If we remember years ago, baritone bama landing in berlin and there was a revelation that the annual metal started has been hit by security people. So it seems that there was to teachers, releases of information around sex was its, i wouldnt put too much to buy them that only human rights front and a lot of frequent visits have to change on the problem. Say i particularly on the south around 50 am, but in general, san john is nothing like it was described in america in europe. So i think these are issues the issues of imbalances in china, those issues of press freedom, in the houses era. Here, there are many things which one can criticize a little china. Lets come down the fundamental need in motion. I think here we are looking at the European Union, the needs economic growth, these links, and also china has tremendous needs to, to capitalize on the recovery post carrier that its now drawing strategy. Everyone wants to, when you tried to, and china to and i agree that there was some possibility there working with europe. There may be a, a, literally a, into that or a c 5. All right, just but lets pause for a 2nd cuz i want to share some more information with all of us because some ive, lets say present. She used his European Visit to wu, your worthwhile. Exploiting its divisions. Would say itd be a candidate for joining the but not a member. He was able to sign a free trade deal, which she for president alexander vintage also went further. Saying bel grade was also signed up to a quote shed future with badging. And this vision of a new world order in budapest Prime Minister, victor, oregon, has long been at odds with follow. E. U. Lead is over major policies. Even telling them they failed and should leave the chinese president sort to win him over with pleasures of investments in energy and transport. Shes in pain promised to move forward on a 2100000000 dollar project to connect the capitals of both countries as part of china and vicious bells and road initiative. Steve, returning to you is china trying to draw a wedge between european states each of these even understand the you 25 years ago. They understand that he, you extremely well now, and thats exactly why they put so much emphasis on calculating the relationship with hungry. Because they know they only need one power, whole allied with feeding the looking union and then the capital a lot of what your opinion may otherwise wants to do on the leadership of the one that i end in house in gauges which china. So i think that these certainly need attention for she can bring in this message to re friend europeans and when opec itll be in to p needs. But he is doing it with a very sign up centric approach, which means that a pop from the countries that he is visiting hungry. So itd be a antoinette takes them from, is not actually winning for the Public Opinion to finish the hero p and union. More or less the just as well the so i would like to steve. Yes, exactly. I would like to drill into this sino centric approach that you prefer to you say that if he really wanted to bridge the divide and im send a joint message hed be visiting brussels, the hoss of European Union as opposed to selectively choosing his countrys light. That is talking about those countries that he selected to visit. Lets talk about home being a minute, but lets focus on serbia now. As i mentioned earlier, its not an e. U been by, its traditionally always been close to russia present. She was the mocking 25 years since the nato bones, the Chinese Embassy in belgrade. Something washington says was a mistake. No doubt. What does this visit say to you . It seems laden with symbolism. Of course, yeah, it is actually just being blazed 25 years after the Chinese Embassy in belgrade. It has been hit by tonight. Told me sounds this is correct. And despite old yelling issues, chinese science probably will never, i would say, believe, disclaim that it was finding turned into strength. I would say definitely 25 years ago. And this kind of the thought check has because outraging china not only within the chinese leadership and chinese president s at that time. Ready was john, so me, but also the streets we have but with this massive approaches, i guess the, the political last and i believed and actually which makes closer to 2 countries. Serbia and china is definitely this kind of on the western Political Sentiment that has been arising within that. Actually its never seas of the bombing time. So he is 25th anniversary of the day of the embassy kids was definitely be indeed huge symbolism. And even here within the domestic public today, many people are actually referring to this as a very important connection chai behind the 2 nations. David mana shed onto weston sentiment shed between serbia and china. I understand you visited the site of the bottom, the embassy soon afterwards. As you read this, well my impression was that one, it was of the into town that it was home since i happened this big mistake. I do remember the ministry of defense with the size of 10 street corners and going straight into your administrative defense and the rage, surgically. And so i dont believe for a moment was a mistake. But the child was, we kept the time america read edge and use it to do Something Like this and send a message. So its a complex situation. In the, in the other thing that there was a sophisticated plan to split your china. It was cowardly planes. What strengths were can, and these are relationships where china believes that can get somebody can on the gains and get a set of a position in some countries in europe, rather than deal was the more conflicted in general Politics Around china. The gemini faces. Nonetheless, i think it was a mistake. Oh, she not to go to brussels. I think you should have gone to berlin attached to london, showing a confidence and a kind of broad sense of europe. Now i dont know what advice he was given, but to me that was a pity. Nonetheless, i wouldnt worry too much into the space in your scenario. And i think sean is vain enough to think he can do this, but they do know where they feel they will be welcome, where they can announce concrete projects in really kind of in terms of i think that has been one of the main drivers of this person, oh steve, lets talk about precisely real economic terms because china is we know has been investing huge sums of money into so itd be a massive infrastructure projects. Ive been to several myself with that. Ill just share a huge bridges opens by by saying with great, so find a fair in the country. So itd be as present alexander boot church cools the relationship, an iron clad friendship. Whats behind it . Do you think . Well, china does need friends in europe and for a 5 year old can send this relatively small country line. So itd be, it is easy if were trying to make a huge impact. Then even trying that way, investing in one of the logic members stays hope that you will be in union where they havent much because you call them ease. And therefore the same level of Chinese Investment simply would not have been seen as so significant a scale. So they are actually very, very smart and i think we have to recognize that she can ping seemed. So s h ones formation already the will you know miss ambitions for china. She knows what hes doing. He is not stupid at all. He gets a very small, right, right. Yeah, let me jump in to see, let me, let me jump in the steve because as you say, hes a small operator. He knows what hes doing. No, not why. Then would you go to hungry . And the so called bad boy, if your opinion, probably one of the most disruptive states was part of the, the 27. 00 member blog, criticized by brussels, multiple times, the erosion of law for not playing bull. If china wanted to exploit you divisions, youve got to put a past, right . Well, this is the 1st time that could be, this could be correct, but please do not forget that youre kind of to read this thing over the last 5 years, a dose of the so called the sign of skepticism or the skepticism towards cooperating with china in general from the old central and Eastern European countries. So there is the sub, but somebody should do 70 plus one, which according to my opinion, unfortunately, is counting for dissolving. Because a few years ago, we saw some Baltic States between you in 2021 has decided to result from this initiative. And also it was followed by lots via and this sonia as well. And then, but we also have some kind of, i would say that some of the china is sentiments. So i think that actually budapest is seen from badging side as the partner in central and Eastern Europe, which is the, you remember state of the same time which surveys not. So surveys the us, i remember state um, so i believe that actually the branch corporation ties that to see has made with the hungary on the message to us both European Union and all the countries in europe. That actually joining tends to so we define its presence here in central and Eastern Europe. And also, please do not forget that actually china has promised to, to build a huge factor of ease of electric buying the vehicles in the south or city of the 2nd game in hungary, which will be fully free to exports the western european markets. Which if this factory was based instead of the will not be the case of the possible because you know, it would be farther from not you remember states to exports this kind of vehicle. So i believe actually the, these 2 visits this, those dates, state visits promo for the best the best days. But also in telling you the, please do not forget that the very 1st term both of you for structural products within the belt thrilled initiative has been built exactly here between the best high speed railway, the very 1st one actually in the balkans. If i may, if i may say so, so this is very important, you can contribute to public image, the positive dimension, both guidance or publish site. Okay . Look good. Just when, as we approach the end of this conversation, we cant really talk about china, your opinion relations without talking about the kind of pressure other likes of it. My new background, the other you lead is hope, the china will be able to put on russia to end the war. Busy in ukraine is from some other even nations over estimating how much health china might be able to offer when it comes to ukraine. David, i think so im trying to doesnt tons of broken deals. For instance, as the americans have in the past, the, the, the initial record of it came, david, when you had yes, our 5. And there was a piece deal to sort out. Americans react to them that way as europeans, the chinese facilitates but they dont involve themselves on the discussions on the same way that said, the law in ukraine is bad for everybody. And what if a china makes ice the weather, the same by support . Russia and certainly they want this to end as soon as possible. So we may see something a little more active, but we can see china and a waste incense, but they are trying to be broaches an active way. They tend to be facilitated, isnt that the bodies, as saudi arabia and around that recently come together and reached the agreement facilitated by china. Facilitate but dont get involved says david steve, once you make that is a well the, the who can deliver a shuttle diplomacy between moscow and t. It is. She didnt think hes chosen not to do that is a well really the, the cruelty and a has to listen to it is china. The china. So stays the russian bull you calling to me. So you can be really want to put pressure on that to 10. Im not saying the uprooting with somebody do exactly what youre giving us games to do. But were not seeing should have been even attempting to do that. Instead, she didnt bring, takes a consist of the inconsistent policy towards the ukraine goal, which is one of the kind of waiting neutrality supporting to protein and refusing to pay any price for it. And thats why china is not providing weapon systems to russia because that will ultimate to the trigger sanctions, therefore, a price for china to pay for anything sort of dead. China is doing to help the russians, the sustainable as it is not a bi copy, not a normal copy send approach. China takes a, sorry, let me throw that to you. Do you think that your pay leaders are being a little bit too hopeful about how they may encourage paging to get more directly, politically involved in solving conflicts in Eastern Europe . It is, of course, the 60th anniversary of french chinese diplomatic relations. Ukraine, as we know, has become a meat grinder. What incentive can you or offer if a tool to get china more involved lou . Yes, i believe actually that ukrainian cries has promoted. And i would say revealed new china rule. Ready in global mediation issues, because if you remember these, the recent uh, 12 points plan issued by a piece of aging for resolution or for settling the situation in your brain. We could not, is this kind of mediation i versus thats, thats actually a are aiming to promote china is a global x are capable of resolving the Global Security issues. And he knew ration to your opinion and rationalize to mistakes. And to me, how does that will change in International Arena . Currently, everythings regards to to the opinion prizes. I think actually that your opinion, leaders should rely more on trying not to do these. Let me get put into start. Ready kind of for, i would say i would also agree with what my previous instructor said, that extra the only person the only capable either nowadays. But hes that hes accepted by both ukraine, both to brain uh, European Union and also rest refrigeration, which be definitely uh, centurylink. So this is the political capitalism. I believe both sides should accept as a new reality and try to launch their strategies towards china. Then then i think so that weve got about a minute left to david. If i can give you the last word soon as you all over the in the page. And i want to know about the chinese audience, what message will the chinese president give to the chinese population on returning . Thats the country a well, the opponent is already very favorable and better as the nature of the chinese media. Yeah. People who wants to find out another angle content on a vpn so they can what job to 0, they can read from 24, they can look at their support for other well so but in general its, it is already being presented as a successful truck. So they kind of stand way when he returns i think the thing is, the idea that theres a room full support, a rush or no more than crime is wrong, based on the will, hasnt got along with the sanctions that americas, as i was in the or was amongst those shot us just training as usual, and theres been an increase of cost, but the audio but apparently supporting the war here. That is not the case. So i, this is a different one, so i switched interest. So china, across the board is charging its own cost. David mon, steve saying that 2nd, its been a pleasure to have you on inside story many thanks for your time gentlemen. And of course, thank you to for watching you see the program again, any time by visiting our website, how does 0 dont com for further discussion . Go to our facebook page. Thats facebook dot com, forward slash page a inside story. You can also join the conversation on the x handle is a inside story for me, the fuck out, the whole thing here. Fucking up the ill just say about brings you in depth analysis. The so comply take. Now what has been exposed to many of those companies that styles, recently on that day they said 75, selling and testing with him down. So as we speak these very speak, this is a history every homes know were getting each going finish. And the fact that each round is that the International Court of justice shows how much deeper than nothing on this goes nothing yahoo success may be better, maybe was but its the one that has to address that suspended. Stay with us for the latest developments on out. 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