Transcripts For ALJAZ Talk 20240704

Of course, 7 of the engine and the southeastern region, the explosion happened in the hotel near mosque. Nearly as military says, it has enough evidence to prosecute to detain president mohammed, but soon for high treason, but soon was deposed and the rest of the off to the military to pell, by force, the 100 statements, which was bold cost on national television. These held multiple challenges against by the lose everybody, julia, i really assist you lose the government of needs. You have to date, gather the necessary evidence to prosecute before the Competent National and International Authorities to the ousted president. And his local and for an accomplice as a high treason and undermining the internal and external security openings you following his exchanges with the nationals of 4 and heads of state and heads of International Organization biology. And the speech mocking army de saddams military chief has promised unwavering support for his people. The army and the Power Military Rapid Support for the system. Now being fighting since mid april, millions of people have been affected is more of what the army chief had to say. Look the know what happened suddenly via show you and the whole world im going to, um, sources will remain the same as it has been throughout the community and yet, or the history. Okay. Even if you made a professional forest of science with the choice of the people in the district that it didnt matter that i deal with the state of law, no democracy, i need to do so. Now what ive done paper on the Hawaiian Islands of molly is searching for relatives, an Emergency Shelter as often devastating wall fires. 96 people to confirm dead but more than a 1000 to missing their off. He is the death toll could vice significantly thousands of last day homes and livelihoods. Well, those are the headlines on al jazeera. Do stay with us, talk to l just sarah is coming up next. This is time for the west to replace the best option for the ukraine rush of war and what, what those options look like. What is us strategy when it comes to iran for almost 200 years, americans have generally been stuck with 2 political choices, but cannot ever change the quizzical look us politics. The bottom line, the hes recognized as one of the fathers of Artificial Intelligence. Joshua ventures work in the 1990s in 2000 has contributed to the foundations of chatbox. Like open a eyes chart and google foreign born in france and 1964. When you grew up in canada, where he began programming as h 11, inspired by Science Fiction literature and tv shows today. And you as one of the biggest voices warning the World Without the necessity of having control and regulations on a technology. More than fueling machines turning evil and you is more concerned about how humans might choose Artificial Intelligence to harm others. In march t, as other prominence a i, scientists find and thats are urging Tech Companies to pause a development until the industry can agree on regulations. And alongside reading a personalities are you, im all day and store trust. So he testified before a us congressional hearing warnings at the front of the case of a i development in the wrong hands could be used to create biological weapons. So is it exist . Central threats of humanity, or is it a tool that will transform online for the better computer scientists, joshua benji. O. Talk of the 0, the what is the whole, well, seem to be talking about, hey, i right now, whats changed . I had been reading about the potential dangers of losing control of a i for the last decade. But i didnt pay so much attention because they thought that it was so far into the future decades or even centuries. Because the systems weve been building in academia are really, really stupid. I discovered the idea of neural networks. In other words, research and Artificial Intelligence that is inspired by the brain when i was looking for a subject from my grade studies, 1985. And it was a passion right away. I thought this was really uh, something i wanted to do. Um, i was excited by the idea that there would be a few simple principles just like the laws of physics that could have, you know, help us understand intelligence and build Intelligent Machines. So i was interested in, well, so i caught a brain works as well as the i and in those days, the idea that intelligence could be understood by the few mathematical principles which one was very marginal. But the last 2 decades really give us a lot of evidence that its probably true, which it means is easier than people stop in those days to build Intelligent Machines and to understand the brain. And the last few years, whats happened is because of the billions of dollars that are being put into deep learning by industry. We have collectively discovered that the larger we make those systems, the better they are. So it doesnt stop getting better. And more recently with the georgia, the i both of images and text weve passed that kind of well that the differential so its not just like, oh, it gets better now. Its like as good as us, its painting the picture, a hands understanding language to some extent, that fools at least most of us, most of the time. So thats extraordinary, that, that you know, in 1950 island during maybe you could call the father of Computer Science design. This test that you was thinking, he would have reached schuman level intelligence, if we can build machines that we interact with. And we can say if its the machine or ceiling, actually we know that the current, the high systems are still lacking some things, at least i and many others think so. But we might not be very far from, from that level of positive. And the Artificial Intelligence is that are being developed now, whats different about them . If you look at systems like chat, jp sign, typically speaking, that doesnt seem to be a lot that is reading you. Its really the scale at which these systems are built. How much data, trillions of words, the fraction of the, all the texts on the internet would take tens of thousands of lifetimes of human reading to, to get all that information and, and the corresponding scale of these models with true units of knobs, that can be set thats huge, its still smaller than the brain but, but these knobs are very precise much more than yours analysis. So yeah is scale. Its engineering something we couldnt do the academia and the fact that it works so well suggest that there may be just a few. The elements that especially related to reasoning that were still missing. Its hard to say when well figure them out, but it could come quickly. I dont think society is ready for that. Then certainly id seen you one joint they the, the cheering award. Busy was a full wont be doing deep learning so that the, the drink prize was given to jeff, incident, me younger kind of myself because of our contributions to the feel of the planning. We claim the term and we figured out how to train you on. Thats, that would be able to represent richer things. I worked a lot on language, young work a lot on images. Jeff had some of the early ideas to train many layers of me on that. Some that i eventually found that there was a simpler way using traditional methods with some little tricks. My group also found the method of introducing attention which has turned out to be essential and really transformed natural language system. Just like the ones we see today. So would that be charging between the without thats work, charge of you would not exist with the work weve done. And of course, you know, science is a contribution to many, many people. Its, its engineering its, its scale, but its also algorithms that did not exist. 20 years ago. So in may 2033 you in about 350 other people signed a statements warning about that that changes of hey i why did you do that fairly young during the winter language chat g p t i started wearing that maybe were not far and what would be the consequences and i started reading more of the research thats being done to study whether we can build machines that we will not lose control us, that we can control fully. And the horrible realization is we dont know how to do that yet. After a decade of research trying to figure it out. And i dont think we have another decade before we reach a point where our machines are smarter than us. Maybe we maybe, maybe its gonna take more time, but at the rate at which were progressing, i dont think so. So its time to raise the alarm a, you know, we should have done it before, but it, it is chapter p t that made it obvious for everyone, but also for scientists like me. And even for the people who have been in, in the middle of the construction of the systems, that we are at a point where its urgent for society to think through and be wise about how we prevent catastrophes. How this is going to be used for what purpose . Uh. How do we make sure it doesnt blow up in our face . What kind of catastrophes are you thinking about . I mean, theres only harm thats being done by i because that these systems dont do what we intend. This is called the alignment problem. And it people have built the systems that were intended to do well in the say face recognition. But if they didnt intend that they would behave badly on people of color, but this is what has happened. Now, this misalignment between what the humans want and when the machine does can actually get worse as the machines have more capabilities. Let me give you some, some examples from Science Fiction space, obviously because one holland 1000, its smaller than that, at least on some levels is smarter than the astronaut. So that are their hands. It has a mission some military mission. And having such a goal means that it, it, it, it cant allow it to be turn can, can be a cant allow that, itd be turned off, it wants to preserve itself to be able to achieve its mission. So when the asymptotes think that there is something maybe going wrong with, with the eye, and think of turning it off, how kills one of them and wants to kill the other one and kills the others. So it, as soon as the machine has self preservation goals and, and, and, and if these goals are specific sufficiently strong compared to other goals, then theres, theres a chance that what the machine one, some that what we watch, what we need to are not going to be a line and someone was, this machine isnt smart enough, like, you know, there, every living being wants to survive, but theyre not smarter than us. But these machines are smarter than us, than we are potentially in danger. So this, this alignments a problem. We had it all around us, Companies Making contracts with each other, rebuild machines that dont do exactly what we want, but when windows system is becoming really powerful, this can turn really bad. Before we get there. There other things that may be at least as wary some because it might happen before we even get that chance, which is humans intentionally using very powerful guy systems for the various reasons. So the example that was raised at the us senate and that, i mean, also talking about is by your weapons. Right now it takes a lot of expertise to, to design and you dangerous virus. So very few people in the world can do it. And that the bad guys typically dont have that expertise, but you can internal gates, chat, gpc or maybe the next version and get enough information that you would not otherwise have to design such such dangerous pathogens. At least this is the path in which we are. It might be just a couple of years with this as possible. And the bad news is we dont really know how to design the systems to make sure theyre not going to put things that could be dangerous. That could help bad actors, for example, it could help them with my friends that could help them with bio, with chemical weapons, could help them with cyber attacks. We can think of many kinds of scenarios. And of course, one thing that square is, um, even you know, shorter is the next us selection or other elections around the world, which could matter where it doesnt seem far fetched. The thing that you take Something Like these large language models, the state of the art, and you can just tune them a little bit and it doesnt take millions of, of, uh, expensive machines of computer. You can tune them a little bit for a task like to be a tool thats going to push the needle in and you know and change peoples opinions just enough to win the election. Is democracy safe . And then i, oh i well, no, no, and its not because of the, the eyes because of humans. And because once you give very powerful tools through humans, they will use them in all the possible bad ways. So long as the tools or not so powerful. There are other humans who can come for that and we have the police and we have the military and we have, you know, all kinds of ways to protect ourselves. But if those tools become so powerful that one could kill means that people with, with them like like Nuclear Weapons. So what do we do with new car is do we make Nuclear Weapons available to everyone . No we, we dont do with that obviously. And. And so now its like we are at the point where we can see in coming years that will have Something Like Nuclear Weapons, except that it doesnt require 2 material. It just requires software and hardware and the software can be downloaded and the hardware can be bought when robot often. Honda creates it the 1st time it wont be famously said that he become desk the destroyer of wells as a creator of a hi. Do you know how he felt . I wasnt there obviously but, but i can imagine and, and he and others because it was a group thing that community of people working together really, really thought that they had to do it because they were afraid that the germans would build a bomb. And it would be worse. So it is not an easy moral situation in which they were one thing that is interesting and maybe there are some houses that a lot of scientists, the i scientists are now like they sell for now realizing who we have something more dangerous than we expected in our hands and we have contributed to that. What it means for me and, and i think thats what happened with open timer is we also have a responsibility to speak up and say, this is dangerous. We need to be very careful. And we can just, you know, go our usual ways. This is um, this is something that requires a wisdom that requires a democratic discussion so that we take the right decisions. You spend much of your career developing. I. So did you have any regrets about the direction that is going on your role in it . Well, regrets at maybe if i had known how things would enroll, i would have started thinking about the safety earlier. But i didnt dissipate that the speed at which things moved. Um, so maybe regret is not the right words is more i i feel compelled to do something about it. I feel like people who understand how these things work have an extra duty to think about how we can uh yeah, it preserves humanity in democracy. So thats, thats what i want to do. Lets talk about that then. How. How do we present or how do we put the right brakes on until the right regulations in place . So 1st we need to high rate because as i said, the chances that these systems could be used as soon as in the coming year or 2 and. And then as they get stronger, the danger grows. So what can we do . The most immediate danger. I think is not loss of control. The most immediate danger are malicious uses. So we want to reduce the number of people who have access to dangerous technology. Frankly, i dont think that the strategy of making your trained models and cold available for everyone is wise at least theres a fresh or wherever we should say though this is too dangerous. And i made like little calculations that say Something Like, if we reduce the, the number of people who have access to these systems, uh, by say, a 1000 times we can win almost as much in the probability of something bad happening so. So this is the 1st thing we need to do. We need to control access. We need to have licensing. So we need that the people who are license to operate. The systems also have duties of documenting what theyre doing and using tests to evaluate the potential harm as well as what is it they are doing to mitigate those homes and potentially not be allowed to deploy something that could be dangerous. So its basically done released the cotton test as well as the 1st thing. Yes. But we also need to license the people and organizations that are going to be developing these things. Kind of big Tech Companies that are developing. I be the only ones to be overseeing it. So do we need governments inputs . No, its clear that it needs government and i think whats going on right now in the us with the a commitment that companies to some companies as ive taken is a good step. But, but it is good to the extent that we dont have a destination yet. It, we need legislation for number of reasons. We need legislation because you have to apply to every company and we need a station to clarify where you put the bar. Because right now its just like some nice words, a will be careful. But no, we need some concrete benchmarks that say this, this you can this, you can put an open source because open source is a good thing. But this is too dangerous or this system could be exploited by a terrorist. And so no, this is not acceptable but it, but this has to be quantified and its going to take some effort. Those Companies Already building those kinds of tests. So its not like were starting from 0. But we need to make that the same for all the companies then we can stop at the us. It has to be something that we do for the whole well, especially right now the countries where there is capacity for large united systems, notably china and some European Countries in the u. K. Ah, france, germany. But ultimately, every country, because if they are regulations in a few countries that say youre not allowed to do that, you can just, you know, software and hardware is you need to bring in who, in a different country. And then computer viruses or biological viruses dont see borders or anything just go through. So ultimately we need International Treaties with the National Community coming in and setting up a minimal guard rails for safety for everyone. And the other thing we need is research because we dont even know if for sure how to make a bill of par for our systems, are sites that are not going to become autonomy. Is that by themselves that that can be exploded for the various purposes. We dont know how to do that, theyre different proposals, Different Companies do things, but really theres a lot of notes. And so what ive asked the senate is we need to invest globally, can be companies, governments, some mix, at least as much on protecting the public democracy, humanity. In other words, safety as we are in improving the intelligence, the capabilities of these guys systems. Right now is, i dont know, its probably a ratio of a 100. 00 to 1. 00. So thats, thats like the urgent thing that is an investment to protect us so that we can design the rights regulation in the 1st place. And then the other recommendation i have is also maybe a little bit longer term, but even if we have regulation is not going to be full proof somewhere. Someone is going to do something stupid. Um, maybe intentionally, maybe unintentionally. And we need prepare for that. What kind of Counter Measures should we start doing research on thinking that there will be dangerous a eyes with malicious goals of their and, and maybe a few years. How long do we have to, to get this right . Well, the problem is we dont know the rate at which things are going to progress, but we need to plan for the works. And that could be just a few years, maybe 34. 00, or 5 years. If were lucky, maybe its going to be 20 years. But, and i cant say, and we dont want to bet tremendous future or, you know, huge catastrophes and we know its reckoning democracy on. Oh, this scientists thing is going to be trainers this scientist thinks is going to be 5 years. No, we, we have to, the stakes are so high, we have to, we, we invest in protection as soon as possible. Has this made you think differently about your search and the avenues that you want to take it . Yes, yes, and im not yet completely sure. What i should do, but im sure i need to change my path. I research that so clearly i want to spend a lot more time working on the safety. So theres, theres already rich registrar. I need to like read a lot more than i have already. I need to see where i can help the most. I also would like to help with contra measures because thats, so thats maybe the more technical thing. Im not, im not a policy person. Im a, im a computer scientist. And um, yeah, and, and, and also thinking of what kinds of organizations are needed and to carry that kind of research. Moving forward is a i q minus these grades of strengths. Do you think we need different people to work on different threats that we need to deal with . Time of change is Climate Change is much more predictable than the dangers of a on the world is not gonna know to completely crazy in the next 5 years with Climate Change is going to get worse and worse slowly. So in the long run, we need to do that and then just start now seeing with a i is theres a lot more in search and see. So we need to do a lot more research, but we need to also start the preventative measures now. So because of my expertise and i, you know, ive been working on the, i to fight Climate Change and id like to continue that kind of work. But, but i feel like where i can make the most difference is in protecting the public on the, [000 00 00;00] the, when much day a right between all the comes to life with football is not all they shout about a club west societies disenfranchised of the loudest voice. And political defense take center stage. The on the roof goes resistance. The old shows of roger casablanca, defends, who make football on which is the cheapest policy, is focused on guessing food to those who need a nice every child on the 7th, still receives a nature of milk each day, but now triple digits in place. And that is hacking into people spending problem. A problem that Maria Castillo is also aware of. Shes just spent 2 days salary on a couple of mangoes and sometimes whats your dream . The grandchild, the something with his life that he lives well. But he doesnt want to live here to leave the country and take my family with me. Life in cuba is that theres hardly any food. Cubans emigrated in record numbers last year. One way for the government to convince more people to stay would be to get more fear of peoples place. The the for the for one, and then this is a news our life from door hawk coming up in the next 60 minutes. Naesha is clearly to say they will prosecute the deposed president for high treason, sparking fee is of an escalation neighboring but kinda fi. So along with molly,