Transcripts For ALJAZ Inside 20240704

Gloves, the whole robin welcome to inside story. Its described as a monumental political achievement. For you is a ceasefire deal between the government and columbia. And the last remaining rebel group that has failed to stick. That snow changed following low running negotiations. The governments agreement is with the National Liberation army known as the e l. And present, gustavo patrick says its part of his promise towards what he calls total peace. But critics, all skeptical and mutual mistrust remains. Civilization of affility is this time eventually lead to a peace deal and what does it mean for communities and areas controlled by the rebels . Well discuss all of those issues with august sent amendment. The 1st this report now from katia lopez hold. I am the president gustavo will begin his term with a promise to end ongoing battles with arms groups in columbia. It appears hes delivering on the promise with the signing of a ceasefire. Deal with the e. L and rebels. Also known as the National Liberation army. I saturday, i leave that a lot faster. Pace needs to be a reality. We need to in the error of war between the insurgencies and the state. Stop the developments of an incoming food for violent already presents arising from illegal economies and the groups multiplying every were if the 6 month ceasefire holds, it will be the 1st major victory for petros peace plans. But his critics are skeptical. If they do somebody, if im set for my country, that is not the way to move columbia forward, we full lives. We have ancestors who shed blood full freedom enough for these alms groups to receive blessings from lift us up the hill. For decades, the e, ellen has been linked to criminal activity. The government says the Group Finances itself through cocaine trafficking, illegal mining and ransoms from kidnappings. Communities an e. L and controlled area say they need and deserve assurances. We call on the government to dismantle this for a military groups and columbia, by implementing whatever steps are necessary. Federal is columbia is 1st left when president , before turning to politics, he joined the em 19 armed groups to come back with suspected fraud and president ial elections. And that some say gave him more credibility in the latest round of negotiations with the e l and how they most click of and i use, we know that all of columbia has Great Expectations and we come with great willingness to comply with the agreed agenda. Colombia has long battled with in groups, particularly the fark, the revolutionary armed forces of columbia. The peace deal in 2016 ended in more than 50 years of civil war, which killed close to a quarter of a 1000000 people. Scores remain, particularly would continue to file and send rule areas and reports of other armed groups moving into territory for fighters left behind president the little says the ceasefire is a significant step for columbia effective communities agree, lets say the real test is whether it will lead to a permanent piece agreement, katia, look, this is lillian for insights story. So lets bring it al gas in the columbia. The capital bogota is jorge of us tobacco director of the conflict analysis results center. Thats a Non Governmental Organization which studies on groups in denver in the us state of colorado is elizabeth dickson, suddenly Senior Analyst for columbia, the International Crisis group. What focuses on the dynamics of conflict and also in bogota is loud up on the Deputy Director of the piece and Reconciliation Foundation of will welcome to inside story. Hey, can i just come to you 1st of all, 1st question because it doesnt matter where we are old and we people around the world here that are non degree. And the government have decided to talk to each other. Theyve laid down their arms piece, talks the wrong going, possibly a lasting peace, breathing a sigh of relief. No more civilians getting killed, the innocence being kidnapped. Come we breathe a sigh of relief here now with disagreement between the colombian government and the allied. Oh yes indeed, i thank you very much for having us. Ah, yes indeed. Is seidel, really easy. It will be a time for our respite. Nevertheless, this is more like a truce rather than a designate environment and cease fire in the center that he will allow the government on the land. These are really group to come daughter to negotiations. A girl by the way, that has increase over the last 7 months, significantly its violent docs, which i know the us reviews also significantly and the level of the kid not being interpreted structures distinct from dr. Very many souls of violence that affects these for a rather large regions of the country. Elizabeth, can i ask you the same question . Yes. Will there be . I mean, i think im building on what ford has said. This is an enormous wind for the government, and i think what the cease fire is more meant to do more than anything. Its create that space where negotiators can really start to discuss what, what it would look like to come to some sort of agreement. I do think that we have to be very clear about what the c far is and isnt this. These fire is specifically related to classes between the you and arms group and Government Forces and the vast majority that of violence that civilians in elan area is experienced today is not related to that specific type of violence. Its much more closely related to the one fighting other arms groups, 2 methods of social control, forced recruitment. Extortion cannot be things that arent necessarily an under the purview of the ceasefire. So i think its a very important 1st step, our message to the government that it goes shooters is, but it is a 1st up. The most important thing is to work towards bringing real relief to the civilians for a living and every day concept and will and picks up. I think question by question us as we go through the next top out loud, like i bring you in again from buckets. How i could help you with this on the program because youve had that sort of 1st. But certainly the past history tells us that really since 1964, the land you know around and theyve been in existence a total of 7 major negotiation periods have occurred historically theyve all failed. Its not a great track record. Is it either for them or for government . So from where youre sitting laura in bogota, what do you want to see happen . So its in the, in the next few weeks as well and that is right. They, elan, a, had their password or approximately 7 or a piece processes or a big dialogue with different governments and all the cases for the government or the land, a commit sabotaged against the Peace Process. But the point is that right now at these specific, if this process is more, then well have more to bonds, bushes done before. First of all, this is the 1st government that re dab air. They, the stresses with elaine will have probably very broad participation from all the sites of society, which is really key for the land. These at the same time, they land seen more connections or more possibilities to ship a started think so. So you have the changes, especially during, throughout the area that is the good side in theyre not so good size. And it is true that the sub very fragile process due to several things. The 1st said, due to the on thrust all know at off the land, especially of the leaders of the land on 2nd. Because the land use a very at the center license are much groups. So it is possible that if the elaine have in turned on and struggles, that is troubles will reflect in the you know, yeah. And physically, all right, well, no, yeah, yeah, well get into the, the, the hierarchy of a little bit later as well. What i can make this come back to you in terms of the immediate here. Now, what positive positive moves would you like to see by either side in the next 180 days . Well, they, they, the government on the land also agreed to, apart from an agenda to conduct what they call a warranty sequence. Participation process for the cd and society. The part, the theory that were charging, the regions where the young man has prices to obtain some sort. So i, the eastern knowledge end up, which is defined by the community. That is what is going to be going on for the next few months. But i, i want, i want to go back to the point that elizabeth mentioned, which i think it is critical for the success of the space negotiation, which is a part of the big island in every area where each oprah rates in columbia is facing. And finally, disputes with all the groups, most of them are bringing the art in groups in move from having a war against the state. Bravo, war against, or cpo cores against several arm groups and the Security Deposit as need to address those conflicts between the elaine and dollars groups. And that is a rather difficult object to, to find the find success by the national go over the elizabeth, all i bring you in here because, you know, the agreement doesnt really stop the line as you suggested that i dont all of all guess have said you know that the, the tell her the tell her eyes a still the terror that its created by the groups, whether it be attacks on the public kidnappings. I mean theres been no mention of this in this true, so that may still carry on. But it is interesting to one to how the president and the negotiating teams are going to tackle that, you know, no more terrorism. No more kid nothings do. More extortion. Lose particularly complicated, because i think its really important to understand what life is like in elaine areas. When we visit communities, for example, in a region like alca, which is a place where the human is quite consolidated, and then he lives really revolves around the control that this group exercises. So even simple things, for example, if i have a dispute with my neighbor over where my land ends and his land begins, i dont go to the police or they do digital system to adjudicate that dispute. Im going to the last the, the letter are laying down just as theyre sitting, the rules of so sort of commerce and the levels of extortion have increased dramatically. I think part of the clamping down that weve witnessed in elan areas is precisely related to the threat that they have faced from other im groups. And again, i think this is a very important point of the cease fire disease fire at this point. Offers the human a Tactical Advantage in this sense, but it does for you there. Huh. To not worry so much about the military. Im focus on the threat that theyre facing from other im groups. We think there is a risk here that despite the fact that we see lower classes between the land and state forces, we could see an increase or, and keeping up of the conflicts between the atlanta other arms groups into areas. Okay. No louder, let me bring you in here because one does. One says, oh, its now both sides to the negotiating table. Easy. Its a case that both sides realize they call when the battle against one know the ortho. And that they do have to talk to each other. There is an incentive piece that are all benefits to putting your arms down. Well, if i understand, well, the questions, i want to say that there is 2 tables, 2 different tables in columbia. So we are at the same time negotiating with 2 different groups. One of them is the ellen and the 2nd one is the see them to group call me from for my part of good we yeah, im back to process are quite connected. So if one process, if they cease fire with the eel lynn will be, you know, well, the 2nd says fire also will be good. If not, well, we will have a, the situation that the lease of it will describe. We will see an increase of viola, and by the other hand, we also can see at the grease of violence because it in this, these fire with the land in the brought the coals into specific protocols. There is a little that the accomplishment of International Array of fuel my right. So its not only that the la willis at the at thats against the state of the same time. In the 2nd dish stable, they are also unable sharing think he sees fire with the same conditions and finally in all the regions, but its not the majority tarianna present of the land. They were screaming no guns and different kind of groups. I mean, thats part of the country, of course the government and the security forces. Sure would be more, but i sent in the field in order to protect the fee fire, but also in order to recover that control of the territory, which right now is not in the hands of the state. Okay. Who are, you know, doing an agreement that you wanted to come in to the find thats a own. We cannot be in this, in anybodys way that the, the Peace Process with the land that has been successful. The move on to snow is over meant how it is very different from the one that we manage to get a b s agreement with the far on in one particular subject. Which is the, the fact that the fark decided to abandon kidnapping to release kids with these that were in their aunts well before they started. So then it will change. In these cases, the land has not made any triangles. A full need to come or Butler Corporation that they will start with, keep nothing. Then one of the main risks that the space process will face will be the capacity on the other end to control groups. In the case, for example, that they decide to keep now, so to run some in the regions work, but they both are rich and well setting these process to a great to go situation, especially because these process doesnt have the highest award lead, you call them following supported by the citizen re in columbia, dot com, the older previous piece processes. And im worried about that. Yeah. Defined that the land. How does the side in the what to what runs on those treasures for a lot of things, including terrorism and keep nothing. Its right, i worry so never been as the protocol is dont say that they have the engine not call me to buy insurance on the international money. Very low. Yeah. Including of course do not being and for example, the recruitment of minors. Okay. Uh, certainly, uh, elizabeth is agreeing with you. I want to come back to to you again in the basement you or jorge because elizabeth was different about this piece agreement and a whole right. So just thought you touched on it about how the fault corrected to one thing, piece to how the land is now talking piece. There was there is there also very specific difference is all the way that they are in communication with the government. I really think the 1st one and the most important perhaps, is that the human watched the far positions and i think took many lessons from that that are now coloring the current process. And i think probably the one that will be the most infinitive is that the even consider is that the heart gave up far too much and receive far too little. And that has affected most directly, the question of disarmament, which will inevitably be very difficult to negotiate. And the land, at least at this point, talks about a gradual disarmament process rather than giving up their weapons all at once as the fox did. And, but rather sort of handing in their weapons at the, at the speed with which the government also complies with its, its part of the bargain. Now, this test advantages and disadvantages and of course has been done in many different people. Is an ireland for example, the lang down of arms was gradual. And i think that this is something thats going to be a very major point of tension, more than anything else with public opinion. Because of the precedent that was set with the fact that there was an immediate happening over weapons. I think thats the expectation of the columbia in public for future process these. But it is going to be very difficult for this government. And to make that argument with the human and, and you know, why have they taken but less than and i think this is a more broadly, something that needs to be considered in these processes. Its because of the implementation of a 2016 agreement with the far has been very slow. Its been the high schedule. There are many aspects that have fallen short. And that is a concern. It raises questions about the credibility of the governments and make commitments just as it raises questions about the ability to use different art groups to make committed. Yes, indeed, i mean i, its a race is a huge questions. Can i ask laura and buckets all the raises questions of the government, but also raises questions to the public, doesnt it in, from your opinion, from where youre sitting in columbia or how the public reacting to this as well . Is divided, you know, the public in columbia ice ols generally is divided like with the piece of room and laid regarding the Lease Agreement with fark. It goes on that time. Remember that we both gauged at the speech process. We fired. So the public opinion, whats not to tell you a week would that piece process i need basically the same right now. So this was, i, it, the, the Columbia Society is divided the Columbia Society exploration. And of course that will affect the possibilities of peace. But i also want to say to know and to support the lease of it on these at the implementation of the piece of we met with far has to be not taught at the subst there. Just because one point right now we have more than 300 people co signed the Lease Agreement, you know, from the far side. And they are now they have be marked are right now. This is the 1st that create. I dont draw sold environment with airlines. So of course its really difficult to recover, does a thrust fall on government side, and they all do know other aspects of the Peace Agreement also come of various low implementation. And that has been the tradition historically, which piece every month in columbia. So we find Peace Agreements, we are quite cold. And with that, what would you say shouldnt be sorry me enough with the gratian of x. Com buttons, but we are quite bunch guaranteeing the life of the people who are some of the piece agreements and also we are quite but guaranteed the implementation of what we are citing and as a society for a whole day. I know you said nothing, disagreeing, but i do want to move this on a little bit because it, im sure its good. Youre going to add it into this a conversation because the difference between now and then is that you have a left just present. Did you have a right wing government in the right wing president before but to add to this . And just for all view as you know, we want to again show them the presence of the land in columbia. Were bringing out the map full them. And the one thing about eli, which is different to soc, is that each area that they control is controlled independently. This is not a pyramid structure with one leader at the top, which hence makes negotiation even more difficult, doesnt fit. It was over the past 2 years, i have to say that the union has minus to gain control and come on that at 2 to and its from given one mine or front end, a department of trickle. Its already of under control of the central command. They all say all the land that ive seen, that wont be the main difference. I wont be the main difference of the yelling. Doesnt have that national breach, that logistics, national logic, logistics structure. And of course, he saw some very minor size compared to what it was the park by then, which was a finding a really good use the stage, the. And then on the other hand, these more writing code and close to find that to says im, i will say been, although there are very large differences, i would say that most of those difference come from the political size or the political destination all the way i can rely on which is rather not so stick to ideology to that persons defendant. A structure that has the far, okay. I mean if you allow me to go back to the, to the previous points. But what i just wanted to say is that the years and hes the, the, is nothing on most on most important problem for the national and all the d here in columbia and all their problems including for example, the growing by days kind of find side of the broad, the government will stop it for to the price you see on the diving, enjoyed saw. Indeed the, lets bring it, elizabeth here because the one interesting thing is that you have various presence pastrana rebates scientists. Do k a now petro, petra has an advantage. He has been a, a, a man who picked up items and fault. He has a way, an understanding of talking to, um groups. Is that an advantage at this moment in time . I really think thats what the government came into office expecting. And i think unfortunately, its proven more difficult than they havent disappeared. It, you know, it, i think it does confer advantage to them in the sense that there is a level of understanding and also trusts between and negotiating teams. That hes quite unique at the same time i, i fear that the lynn has a longer agenda with someone that they believe is, is more sympathetic to their causes. If youre negotiating with a hard liner, youre really going to pick what your, what, what points youre going to push for where your read lines are and what you really want. But the fact that this government is sympathetic in defense. It just, you know, in the sense that there is an interaction and a truck thats been built. I think it, it, it doesnt extend the agenda and i think its always, it makes it more complicated. It also, frankly, makes it harder to sell to that right wing part of the colombian public, the skeptical part of the columbia public who fears that a piece deal between this government and the human will basically be handling the keys of the kingdom over to the disk or in the organization, of course thats not the case. Hes never been the case and i think the government is negotiating position has been very firm in this regard. But Public Perception does have its own life on its own sometimes. Okay, a lot of its, i bring you in here, we get into buckets all because obviously, you know, weve been talking loud in government, but there were a lot more actors involved here. Youve got the cuban government to be sort of negotiating and helping to nurture the tools interested policies like venezuela or on one side, the United States for the north. There were lots of people who will, will not benefit from these 2 sites. Talking a definition. There is a lot of people that will not have benefits or 5 people talking over the Peace Process. But there is also some more people that get the better for you to, you know, get the Peace Process there. We also see a regarding the United States. I think that these government have a very good approach to the process and also, and even to the public policy, i followed by the drugs and there were against drugs, a federal government. So i think that the federal, you know, how to put the management of the relationship with the United States and also a, he opened the board that weve been a shorter we shift to is the, for me, the most important challenge right now in the process with the elaine is what to do with it yearly. We think venezuela know, even thats why the, because the presence of these are mystical display, big on the concrete. And i said he doesnt know at the know the columbia and governmental dependence. So thats the government have set the level of the challenge here. But its great. So go jorge. Nothing is, had any disagreements and elizabeth, nothing in agreement. So just very quickly, id like to ask about your comments to what laura has just said, elizabeth, lets have you 1st. Why we, you know, thanks a link. This is an enormous challenge. And because this is a by National Gorilla movement with perfect business on both sides of the border and there are real questions about whether i think the how you will deal with the lead fighters who happens to be on the other side of that border. Im but i wanted to make 2 really important points in that regard. The 1st one is that weve had because of the opening of relations. Weve venezuela. Something very important has happened at a low tech, logistical and tactical level on the ground for the 1st time in more than 40 years. Military commanders on the columbia side canal share information with their venezuela encounter parts and vice versa. She is very important because can really move is not just the land or so far distance. Other criminal organizations are constantly moving back and forth. The fact that we can now share information de escalate the situation significantly. And that is a step forward in, in how we deal with the complications of this other situation. Okay, well that sadly we have to leave the conversation. Its a very interesting one, im sure will be coming back to it in 180 days while we have some sort of resolution to whats gonna happen or how its going to move forward to my guess in bogota, jorge it a simple and load up a name and in denver, colorado elizabeth dickens, and thank you for joining me on this edition of inside story. And thank you for watching as well. You can see the program again, any time by visiting our website at aus. 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