A new round of a decades long struggle for power between pakistans military and politicians the opposition says the military is helping the government in ways it shouldnt but focused on is this just politics as usual this is inside story. Hello welcome to the program im in wrong car now obviously not the pakistani Prime Minister but we will be talking quite a lot about him because pakistans opposition seems to be directly challenging the powerful military establishment saying it has too much political influence leaders of the 2 main opposition parties and smaller groups came together in a slum bought on sunday to form the Pakistan Democratic Movement it plans nationwide protests against military involvement in politics Prime Minister imran khans party denies getting help from the army to win the election 2 years ago. Pakistans Army Generals have a long history of political meddling since its foundation in 1947 pakistanis have spent more than 30 years under military rule and it has had a big say during civilian rule to Foreign Policy on india and afghanistan have been the preserve of the military for decades military coups have interrupted democratic rule several times. Lets bring in our guests thought chadri is pakistans minister for science and technology he joins us from the capital islamabad here in doha in his hole even professor of International Politics at Georgetown University and author of pakistan a hard country and in london isis a Research Associate of sirte sosina versity of london and author of military inc inside pakistans military economy thank you for joining us id like to begin in a slow about with thawed choudhry the opposition have clearly stated that your man axons Prime Minister imran khan is in effect a stooge what do you think were going to this is interesting that the government has a very Good Relationship with all the institutions it includes the army it into 2 should be able to separate that is now as the problem as i am working with our 3 and. Other institutions in the harmony and we have no problem not oh i dont know theyre in what construct you have who are stupid because if you see the history of pakistan its the leader of opposition. Formal committed to Prime Minister no large city who has actually been really is didnt grown by any army and he is the one who was brought in politics by generals our worst one of them was to do this not. On the other hand in noncon who did do. See above is on the politician who has never been to any any army led government he contested elections most elections and one occupant so he is the only politician in pakistan who are not part of any Army Government on the other hand all the opposition parties have been a part of army comes on at one time or another so what youre saying in effect is that this Prime Minister has absolutely had no help from the Pakistani Army to become Prime Minister we have been here if you part of pakistan just go into the campaign created of for pakistan that he can solve another part and look at the people gather in the public positions of p. D. I. And then come build if you do any of the party and you read their palms so there were hundreds and thousands of people who are going rallies around pakistan in montana to do and even 2 years before it was more popular didnt focus on he is most popular leader fathers and any Opposition Leader cannot claim to be one hospital can run on as far as popularity has. In london why is it such a widely held and popular belief that any leader embarks on a particularly in wrong cone is actually effectively been put there by pakistans army. Well you know historically parks and militaries have a very effective role in box sounds politics in. Our every Political Party has been influenced and you cannot come too far without some support from the military so that is one Historical Context but also if you look at how around times government has actually created more and more space in one of our goals harmony is actually creating more space for the military means from the Economic Advisory council putting the army chief there to any institution is now that has you know a military guy running it so those 2 Largest Military interim tsongas government bridges become very visible institutionally now i say its interesting because in your book you actually write about the economics of the Pakistani Military and one of the chapters i remember is about the front a Works Organization and Effective Army company as you were that was making a lot of money and had people getting government contracts is that the kind of thing is that the kind of influence youre talking to and is it limited to just that or is it why didnt this vibrant i mean right thank you look at the government from p. R. Yea which is the fox and national airlines. Oil and gas any Major Institution today is headed by of military officers a senior military officer it cannot be council which i mentioned young new chief is a member. And the army chief effectively is a military bureaucrat who was there to implement orders local government and now the insignia government brings him on board makes him a member and makes him an equal partner in decision making. Whats your response to isis is because claim that in fact actually pakistani politics is rife with former military officers and thats how they maintain control. And will be is the i shares all and all critique of focus on are needed by this are not unusual in pakistan but i would see you see for example in economics if you see economy the most important but your pockets are is. Conducting exactly seabeck and what is the major problem with its a security so when the chinese a point is initiate it talk to baucus on the 1st thing was economy must be more number look at the rule india is 1000000000 pockets on the back seat by project every day they are not chinese const the back drive is constantly been going to the there the do abductions of chinese every year and we know there be a lady in just a proxy of india so in Pakistan Army especially the seebeck project has a security and we have to obviously get to the exit and bringing edge evil for me stop and im obviously is important because that just for our viewers who dont know what is the china Pakistan Economic corridor now theres allegations of indians kidnapping chinese nationals is something thats coming from you has not actually been proved definitively yet than a toll even i want to bring you in the head there is this idea full Foreign Governments the dealing with pakistans politicians is quite sketchy business but to have a stable relationship throughout the years its always the army the International Relations are maintained whether its less pakistans politicians china a perfect example of that china has never involved itself in domestic box on politics its maintained a relationship a stable relationship and the same pack the china pox on economic order was just one example of that do you think then that thats just the way business is done when it comes to pakistan for the International Community well yes thats basically true for 2 reasons one is that governments come and. Ministers come and go very very quickly as do civilian officials whereas the military has a permanent established and more or less meritocratic institution and so it makes sense to keep good and close relations with this Permanent Institution in the country the other reason though is that and by the way and in successive has done the civilian governments of also acknowledged this and foreign back on the military. That in certain narrow fields and construction is one of them the military is an institution which more than any other institution in pakistan can actually get things done so the from to Works Authority was was mentioned well. At a time when the United States government was extremely hostile to pakistan and to the Pakistani Military in particular when the afghan war was at its height i have to say that usa id was full of praise for the relative efficiency and honesty with which its aid programs had been instituted in the in the frontier areas by the front of whats authority and so the chinese are naturally relying very heavily on the army when it comes to the construction of their corridor or to the indian ocean which they are very anxious for their own strategic reasons of course to create so yes i mean that is a. Permanent feature of pakistan and of International Relations with pakistan and of course the chinese. In particular as an authoritarian government. I think do find it easier to work with the Pakistani Military than with the civilian authorities i mean isis i think its an interesting point isnt it that you do have not just the chinese but the Saudi Arabians for example you also have the u. S. Often in their meetings with pakistani politicians will also meet with pakistani general zinni very public about it why is that why is it so necessary for Foreign Governments foreign ambassadors foreign leaders to meet with pakistani generals i think there are some new wants is a nice to be mindful lot from you during Obama Administration kerry lugar. Wise men who helped signal nice politics and then. You know we saw what happened to me there was a member. Of the military really pushed back and he sounds democracies and the to democracy is a fledgling democracy and when Political Parties dont push back naturally the only remaining force is is the military secondly when it comes to china i would also like to remind that the chinese president recently cancelled his visit to pakistan and its not all good or out. And left in general retired left in general as head of. Specially a general who is known to have business interests in the United States so our and the and the fact is that the speed of species back. Down after 2018 which is after. The former Prime Minister are so its not all that good but the fact is coming back to your question i think the fact is that the military is is a very powerful institution thats far while Political Parties Political Forces have not really affected back and thats why its the only institution any Foreign Government if it wants to talk to someone if it wants to gets things done its a very transactional relationship that comes out of. Thought whats your response to that its a transactional relationship Foreign Governments have to speak to the Pakistani Military 1st time have to connect to our show here have seen perhaps has not slowed down but actually it has moved through a little oh i have to a different level of the 1st part of back was about in 1st of all you know we have to be a 1000000 men to confess islam but enough is Public Knowledge and root but to know within noncon begin the about this and we have moved with little bits and that is now we are focusing on manufacturing and away i mean johnny and by his i mean the thought of horror in the army in charge when it comes to see pak as a in charge of pakistans politics thats what im asking you is in charge of emira sold the bill what i want to contribute to that effect is not going to that really become very efficient the 2nd part is a buck is on not only is part and parcel and every part of parkinsons government and exact it so they have their own if pakistani Prime Minister and cabinet decides which institution have to so what we and i meet separately what box and wants them to do and that thats all it is and until even the pakistani government the army does exactly what the pakistani government wants it to do what still think what youre thinking on that. No i mean the Pakistani Army is of course autonomous from every government and is determined to maintain that autonomy and most and governments that have challenge that have come to a bad end at the same time i mean it wouldnt be fair to say that imran khan is either a himself a creation of the military or that he takes military orders about everything you know imran khan did win majority is his support among youth in particular is very strong and in most areas of policy that the military does not involve itself and is not interested the point about iran cant. It is absolutely true of nasser ethans of dari and that parties as well is that he has failed to conduct to succeed in really important social and Economic Reforms in pakistan but every government has failed in that its a very recalcitrant country as far as sea seabeck is concerned i think you have to distinguish between 2 parts of it one is the corridor itself the transport and Energy Corridor from china to the indian ocean which is basically being built by the Pakistani Military in cooperation with the chinese and the chinese are happy enough with that and to turn in that it shall be build the other thing is the all the different projects electricity was mentioned. Transport beyond. And so forth now those are not going nearly so that. For reasons that unfortunately have haunted pakistan for oh at least 2 generations nat. Since china has no particular interest in them while the chinese are pretty disillusioned by now they are not particularly. Interested in the military taking the move and making them run that. Its not just about the economy its not just about domestic politics the army very publicly have always kept Security Policies within their own portfolio despite whatever government is in power and talking about india im talking about afghanistan key Security Issues for pakistan and its very much keeps that in house whatever government there is is it time for then do you think the Pakistani Army to try and bring that under civilian authority. I think right now under this government more than any other government they have no control when we look at the Foreign Policy i mean look at for example relations with saudi arabia when the for next a raid a very foreign speech which made saudi arabia unhappy it was the army achieve who was sent to kind of put things in order not that he managed to put things in order are what he was the one who went to burn it comes to afghanistan its the army chief who goals so effectively they are running Foreign Policy and as far as the park is concerned and you know mr george resetted out. And army being very green dont rule and therefore because they play a key role in sea they can therefore i mean i would really want him to sink because. There is already a 12000. 00 our men Strong Security force Security Force which is there to provide security we why in dition to that the organization see because already has to be headed by a retired army general. Could be a could be a politician could be somebody from below. Or you know these are questions i think the military ends much more powerful today and its become look at the gagging of media there is much more restrictions on the media the new laws that are being brought in well there is a bill which has been introduced by the beattie. Member of dr bill which actually would ensure a fair spazz to the parliament that anybody who speaks a criticizes the military will get 2 years in jail and 500000 rupees fine to derek so this kind of pressures on the society means that militaries present will increase for a year a Senior Member of the ruling party. Has just said that you dont have your party doesnt have a Foreign Policy has the Foreign Policy whats your response to that. Well before dr out of you know the Prime Minister of iran combin but he was knocking the ball over he was the one who was educating if i missed on to lucian who prox and and now when he came to power the coolest thing people was that he concentrated in a monotone and technically there was no were just that theres a group when its not and we want to do is here and we want to help us say to exit on its not that was it ever military strategy or one c. Or is it p. T. O. Just it i wanted it its the feeling strategy and actually know how army and order to be able even the usa has no it really big crime against iran part of thinking and not want to censor to send their community in now is basically of anybody solution sort of like what is just preaching about to say that everything is going to and by military you know do we have this for our children its not just fun its not just fashionable when you have in not just civilian institutions but private institutions often have a military commander a retired officer in charge and thats all fashioned thats fact. One fact of the matter is that. Many journos in us the administration retired generals have stuck. With their foreign minister but what would you say that it was important what you see is gone by by the u. S. Military once it is not so yes once again that is there or not its very much a sunni and he is eligible to have a civilian post and this is what happened in back is a minute is very organized already so what you get is really really really creating Human Resource and this is everybody going back to the i dont really understand science and technology but i know that if i get many of the offices are going to the offices and ohio opposition its far more going to lenient frankly because they are going to create they have been training standards are so poor theres a lot of books theres more good autumn used and you know rethink yes we like to big help from our army in many of the many aspects of it mr chen have theres no movement and its all event its a little bit disingenuous for the opposition box songs opposition to say actually the army are in control because when its been in their interests theyve used the army to get power is that true. Absolutely i mean the thing is that the power of the army is is a is a fact in pakistan its due to a number of things i mean one is that obviously there are genuine security threats to the country and clearly any country bordering on india and with hostility. With india is going to be very concerned about its own security its true of course that the army has a very very large share of the budget and so any one of the reasons the army works well is that it has the money to do so unlike other institutions. But you know the other thing is that the for that reason but other reasons as well the army does frankly just work better than other pakistani institutions. So yes i mean every every government in power has to work with the military if it doesnt as i say comes to a bad end but it must also be said that when they go into opposition the parties are generally also very willing to intrigue with the military if they think that that will help them get back to power so its going to this is a permanent fact of pakistani life now larry and it will be all turning out to tom i would like to come to city because well id like to see the same question as well is it a little bit disingenuous from the opposition to claim that pakistans military has too much control when actually when theyve needed it theyve taken that influence that power to put them in positions of government so fast you would definitely like to make one point which is that this whole argument back military being more Organization Needs to be degraded youve never had a military audit ordered off its duties secondly i think though you know when the opposition parties say that militaries fall forward its pushing them i think theyre not saying is that they are also part of it they are also the ones who have called did they have the work with the military and at this point are dying when they complaining when theyre raising slogans about a minute of i sharif is making mistakes from london i think what he forgets to say is that many of his Party Members are meeting generals so i think you know there is its running with the hare amounting with the hounds kind of reproach off low cost political governments and political opposition as well for charity id like to leave you with the very last question having heard what our guests and in london have said by very large experts in pakistan. Do you still think iran can is completely independent of the Pakistani Army. Well i like isnt about me is part of the government so i would say that we Work Together you know harmony so if you did this is something you would like to say control i can tell that because baucus on the cabinet is although i can tell you about 100 to see is that to be governor did not have to be with someone who just doesnt the last government leading to just because of this many many many many time. When you see the Defense Ministry are different but the government. So its i would sit at the yes block isnt as a right he might be a god but this on its Security Issues or not we are all i need is a beauty to spectate institutions that we as even as a government would expect bugs and i meet. As an institution and the whole mission perspective on me as an institution so i dont think so it can be done and has been drawn pakistani Prime Minister the video independent anyone who knows him run out. And votes for his independence he you can never ever you know say anything once everything about him is a very independent man 500 he is already independent party we have many independent governor and the whole this is do follow and i want to thank you i want to touch how do you want to thank you tom i want to thank all our guests in fact for choudhry and his whole even and i sent city come and thank you to fortune you can see the program again any time by visiting a website out is there a toll call and for further discussion cut off Facebook Page thats facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story and you can also join the conversation on twitter handle is at a. J. Inside story for me and one count on the whole team head to. North korea isolated and heavily sanctioned yet earning billions around the globe there are 39 is involved in everything that makes money for this korea. To carry defray the cost for us to take on tyson. The money this year and it goes straight into the coffers as a leader said a 2. 00 part people in power Investigation Bureau 39. 00 cash for kim park one. Of the Eco Friendly Solutions to combat threats to our planet on aljazeera. I dont know how the top stories here on aljazeera and lebanons Prime Minister designate mustafa deep has quit saying he hasnt been able to form a government this comes less than a month after he was named Prime Minister the key question now is who will replace him and who will want to replace him is in beirut with the latest the Prime Minister doesnt. Cite his inability really to form a government not just any government he called it a government to say
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