The way you think you can count death story isnt what can make a difference. Is south africa doing enough to fight xenophobia Human Rights Watch accuses police and vigilante groups of routinely targeting foreigners so whats needed to ensure equality for all in the socalled rainbow nation this is inside story. Hello and welcome to the program im in wrong cone routine lethal violence against foreigners an indifference from the police Human Rights Watch says migrants in south africa facing increasing numbers of attacks a year after the launch of a National Plan to tackle xenophobia. The watchdog found many south asians and migrants from other parts of africa living in fear police often ignore foreigners who report crimes against them some face hurdles getting access to lawyers and Public Services a year ago mobs destroyed foreign owned businesses and homes Human Rights Watch says at least 18 foreigners were killed and a few of the attackers have been brought to justice that have been similar attacks over the years the report was based on interviews with 51 people in a number of provinces they reported xenophobia attacks not only by South Africans but also by government and Law Enforcement officers foreign owned businesses are disproportionately targeted in raids by police who consider attacks on foreigners as routine crimes foreigners are often blamed for some of south africas biggest problems such as high unemployment rates and crime the Rights Group Urges south africas president to prioritize and fully implement the action plan it recommends improving social cohesion by forming a task force which includes foreigners. I lets introduce the panel all joining us from johannesburg they were at my anger is a Southern Africa director Human Rights Watch to see her son is a member of the good tang provincial legislator and also a youth leader and is a political analyst and a columnist i want to welcome you all let me begin with you taylor youre one of the authors of this report can you just tell us the main findings. Is Human Rights Watch and we found that the new pope be a huge challenge in south africa particularly because of the. Agencies. To get in successfully prosecute those who comments that. They use that you know lose him by the. Using to acknowledge. That isnt a phobia is a challenge and thinking that the hips criminal its can not be classified is that of these 2 and watch me tell it exclusive in as it is out we have found that many victims have no recourse to justice and the system that is them to the africa. Court if you use an Asylum Seeker does not allow for them to be fully protected weve been to take a tour of south africa but do what you will a sample symes size seems to be quite small he spoke to 51 people were hearing that 18 of those suffered from violence is this just the tip of the iceberg that you think youre reporting where its Human Rights Watch we hear for more than 10 years been investigating in a public well its of africa and i want to let you know that it comes in waves so this is an indicator of what was happening in september last year but we have been following these issues for many years including the different waves of violence in different years from 282015 and also last year in the attacks important Truck Drivers and in all these cases the pattens at the same impunity took no accountability and of Law Enforcement agencies not tipping in to ensure that those who commute abuses are punished so this is part of. It documentation that calls for more than a deputy but as i understand it there is a National Action plan in place is that not being in force that was agreed upon by all the Political Parties its that is that not being enforced is that the case. Well the National Action plan not enough has been done to ensure that its dead a plea to close in combat xenophobia particularly when we talk of issues of stopping the violence and punishing those responsible so notwithstanding that the National Action plan which was noised in march last year we have seen continued violence despite that we have this negative event we have seen a continued failure by the police to step in and stop the violence and we have seen a continued somebody by victims in a public by that is not withstanding that that is in place in National Action plan that was launched by the authorities last year in march. And also in johannesburg is there a problem was that a phobia within south africa or is Human Rights Watch exaggerating. Is definitely a problem of xenophobia in this country and i think its particularly pertinent if you know we actually have a time afro phobia because it goes beyond just generalizing of all people who are foreign nationals i think its particularly acute when we knocking at foreign nationals of those who belong to african countries that on inside africa i think anyone who says we dont have a problem perhaps has their hand or heads rather than the sad business thats the problem but when there is a problem and there is a National Action plan often the reason it isnt enforced because there isnt the political will to enforce it now been speaking to people in south africa friends of mine who said actually what were hearing is a lot of language coming out from politicians that if not directly suggesting that there should be violence against foreigners but echoing the same sentiments and we also talked about they were talking about these waves coming through as well whats whats the reason behind this latest batch of violence. Look at it like its been reiterated by Human Rights Watch this differently waves of obs in a phobia but for me its its much deeper than that and one of the things that i think we do need to be looking at is when selectric a theres a huge focus on identity politics and it really is also a legacy from a partition from colonialism in which you know people identify or draw worse from the group of people that they from and i find that its also playing itself out in a much larger scale so weve seen this in a public elements but the truth of the matter also is that apart from the prejudice that exists this is also a she which an economic issue so one of the big things that you hear from people on the ground in general citizens is that they feel that their jobs are being taken they feel that they dont have enough Economic Opportunity and then that into good news itself with that prejudice and then the target of that anger yes of course do get Service Delivery protests but that target is also foreign nationals who are doing piecemeal jobs in communities for example or on what we call Small Grocery spaza shops in the communities as well and those are often the people who was at the front end of that prejudice so for me there is an anthropological way for us to deal with this but its also very important to acknowledge that it also is born out of poverty severe poverty that all people are suffering from and you need a multipronged approach to really i think to address it. In johannesburg a multipronged approach is whats needed says. The guest now what is what is the approach currently from the government when it comes to dealing with not just on a phobia but actually identity politics within south africa do they have a concrete plan of action. Well to start with xenophobia the approach in government at the moment has been denial i mean i went through the report the human rights whats important and i think that the usefulness of this and put the importance is that it goes deeper into dealing with the question that has caused and us the most those of us who look into those issues it is the attitude towards the state when it comes to xenophobia i mean my colleagues have spoken there about that it is actually a problem but it looks as if it is not something that is at the center of us politics i mean there seems to be this you in south africa that you are have a higher i. Q. Of importance of issues that the most important thing its the economic challenges of majority of the proper people and therefore maybe issues are around a phobia maybe even issues around gender based violence those maybe are seen as a little bit you know a lot on the hierarchy of so until we have a holistic approach that seeks to understand how all these things are intertwined ill give you a quick example we are generally a country that is abetting with crime so xenophobia also tend to follow those lines of fair crime and so forth so when when when issues come out sometimes our politicians tend to say that look you know its got nothing to do with xenophobia is pure crime and we say sometime today that it doesnt have to be pure reason or forget it just to go alongside some of the challenges that encountered within the country but yet it is still xenophobia so you need a shift of attitude from the get go the big problem is denial among those who exercise power i mean im quite happy to hear a member of the provincial legislature on this panel saying that it is actually a problem perhaps it will become the center of politics in south africa but at this point it appears that our issue in terms of it is the attitude that i see government expressing. Struggle report this is true addressed each and every department that is responsible ive never seen such a disparate report almost big into each and every Line Department in government it speaks to the question of the attitude that look let us accept it there is an offer but we will do it with them but us mint of debt but lets come up with a solution and the best way is to accept that it exists. And you are a member of the provincial legislator ralph is suggesting that you might be a lone voice in actually wanting to deal with all of this are you allowing voices of people or are people actually listening to you in government. I think it is new wants to pay and what i mean when i say that is. A good example sometimes when things are reported their report to purity is crime and they dont identify xenophobia as an attachment to it and often because of the different sort of labels and boxes people have that i could either crime or is i this in a phobia its either gender based violence or its either this and i think thats part of the problem right we need to look at this as a holistic problem in society because thats also when you start to see that all of these different issues have linkages and that will have struggles and elements and thats why i sort of iran spoke a little bit about the economics of it because thats fundamentally important you can even link our high crime rate to a lack of Economic Opportunity and the lack of employment so for me i think whats particularly important is identifying those key drivers which i think the report does very well and i actually want to welcome the report i think its very detailed and comprehensive and then use those different keys that link each other to focus on those but yes is it is it a difficult thing to talk about definitely i think its particularly difficult given the history that we come from right im a Young Persons case but a lot of the people that we work with a lot of joining in and so forth against a party so for them you know lifting up the mirror to ones face is always a bit difficult because one never can then identify themselves in a negative position you know and thats not to say that people dont care about it its to say that i think the approach in one and also someone else at this the pro choice is what needs to change in the approach is whats particularly important and thats also by the way what the report is we need to publicly openly call out in a phobia for what it is. The report is a quite extreme one of the few that ive actually read where you do list almost every single Government Department as being responsible it goes from the judiciary to the government to the police there are quite specific examples that youve given but you dont have a voice in the government is there anybody listening to. Well we hope that the authorities in south africa and listening in and we are reaching out through the media and also setting up meetings to engage inch directly and present our findings because yes it is important for those in power to listen to and to hear our recommendations for south africa to be able to move forward but not only that we are also saying that the issue of xenophobia should not be isolated to be is of african challenge alone we need to have each addressed with the in the Southern African Development Community said that and also in the African Union and the United Nations live with you and live with it use the special report show responsible for issues around receive them in intelligence and then of course yes and we also want to bring this to Pay Attention so that they can be equivalent to a concerted effort to find a lasting solution we should be limited by this of the african or thirtys but with support from other key players regionally and globally i mean real thoughts are very interesting point because if you look at the countries that border south africa mozambique for example has an insurgency going on thats driving a lot of people into south africa theres a lot of racism towards people coming in from other african countries i think the word after phobia was used just earlier that is a wider issue thats an issue for not only the sudden South African government but facade like and even the African Union sholay that somewhere something that needs to be worked on on an international level. Indeed you need a Regional Response to these quite often when one listen to some of the political leaders in south africa you can sense of frustration and i dont think it is justifiable suspicion but i do sense of frustration where sometimes the lead us in south africa politically does almost in that look that its not all original response to this look like you decide the biggest problem at a regional level what do you often see its when other african nation African Leaders are quite angry sometimes looking away from confidences and i remember very well in the report that that we are discussing here it came of those events last year i remember very well for the president of the and actually saying that he is not coming to death that because of the problem of the us a conference in south africa i remember that he was not coming because of this xenophobic violence and my view a trial is quite critical to say that but president kagame is it will be better to go in and gauge south African Leadership on these working away does not help us against them approach will not help we need a stronger original response but i have to say as well that at a regional level as the problem of terrorism the level is that you have so many issues some in your correctly pointed to the muslim dig at the couple got the situation there we have been talking about this in by there the crisis of the opposition in zimbabwe those are some of the issues that seems to be overwhelming and there is no leaders but i think theres no he doesnt understand that you dont need to have a hierarchy of problems problems are interrelated a typical citizen will come through various forms of fair engagement unity saw it doesnt have to get in if you dont have to say that im starting now to didnt woodson or for you just have to make sure that within your policies there is a sensitivity to all of this that its not put you need to just wake up and say today is only gender based violence. We dont live in a society such as that we dont live in the lab we didnt nearly elsewhere i did not live in you need that kind of a not cold coming will be dust i will to undertake to take it in approach but ive not seen it at this point to be honest with you. Not to defend anybody who isnt a phobic but do you have an understanding of where people might be coming from now this is less about say for example people fleeing war fleeing Political Violence within their own countries and coming to south africa but there are economic migrants here as well people who are coming to south africa making money and there are some legitimate concerns perhaps that from South Africans that money is going abroad is not being reinvested back in the country is that an issue for you. But thats a very big issue in this much as i have my own personal views on the matter and i think you are quite right in it separate refugees and thats a difficulty as a public representative because quite a few South Africans you know id hazard a guess and say you know the majority of the pulley konami working class are raising these issues with us and theyre saying exactly that that they are many sort of economic immigrants and what are we doing to protect South African interests and its a very difficult thing to on so especially i think coming from the way we do with the fact that south africa liberation came about particularly because of what we call the frontline states that ambien as above where you know whats on of those people who really took us in when we were fighting the apartheid state but. Its this and that and i think it brought in order to us to have a genuine sort of solution orientated approach we do need to acknowledge it and thats why ive spoken here on that economic element so for me when i talk about that multipronged approach i agree fully with the report around better training of the news offices changing the curriculum to include immigration refugio rights et cetera but in addition to that we also have to be providing that Economic Opportunities for all people because if you dont it does play itself out in many different ways and then were putting in a difficult position because as politicians your constituency is saying to you well were not looked after were really suffering and yet heres somebody elses job so you know we dont want to get to a point of a he said she said kind of thing what we want to do is have a preventative approach and create opportunities for people on the ground and even today were having discussions around regulation regulation of Small Businesses so that we can you know where some of the african has the relevant skill they can be prioritized but thats not to say that were going to take isnt a phobic approach and i think thats why we have to be honest in what we call an out as in a phobia but at the same time also provide those opportunities but its a very difficult balance to strike and its something im learning in office very. That its not yes or no right or wrong off as often the case actually deva. Nothing up. In your research did you notice a difference in peoples attitudes towards people who are refugees and people who were coming into the country as economic migrants and opening up businesses or was that theres an a phobia was there simply to any foreigners were what tree notice was that you specially in the informal settlements for example arent dubin and i dont know how to do in those areas. Chad gets for them a public violence and sentiments have been to the poorest of the poor amongst the Asylum Seekers those who were small by the shops in the townships and the biggest problem was born at ability or the lack of protection for example from the police in durban that used an informal settlement code been wood where the police told us that they will not go in there when it is night. Between 6 pm and 6 am primarily because they too are afraid that they dont have enough security so they will not police that settlement the best or the only thing will be for those affected by the appropriate to come out but end soul for the most part if. It class issues the will of the economic migrants with their jobs their executives if not been targeted and they perhaps live in secure places but what we have also noted is that the attitudes from Law Enforcement is somewhat similar when you when dealing with migrants and when no decision reports of how the economic migrants we may be lawfully illegally working with all the documentation. Family needs difficult to navigate within the Legal Framework because of the not for big sentiment attitude from the Law Enforcement of it is that when it comes to violence to attacks to diluting instruction of property use predominantly in the informal settlements targeting the poorest of the poor ralph there is a hardening of attitudes from the South African government this is not the 1st time theyve been criticized for anything i mean lets take like you said earlier they have been criticized for gender based violence the mismanagement of the economy now has an a phobia it seems to me that there is a just a fatigue from the South African government to suggest that theyre not going to do anything about this because a they cant and they its just yet another report that theyre reading and theyre just going to put it in another drawer and trying to deal with the problems of the day rather than the long term problems. Indeed there is for to you listen to. People in the in the home office you ask them about. Immigration policy what pussy do we need to have in place most often you can see they will quickly point out too but does that being overwhelmed you speak to people in the Health Sector dollars went to some of those things again we also need to acknowledge that in most cases the most vulnerable are the ones that die easily and used as a scapegoat to explain some of the challenges it cannot be for example that there isnt why the Health System is having trouble in south africas because of people who are coming from outside south africa dissent last issue of saying that did those that are poor downtrodden are the ones that are going to be at taking shouldering all the ills in society and unfortunately that is also the pattern of the north libya in south africa. Has a new era a young person your in politics you have an opportunity to be a bit more energetic perhaps than other politicians of the past but youre going to face an uphill struggle getting the South African government to hey you on things like gender based violence on mismanagement of the economy and on xenophobia which is what weve been talking about today it is an uphill battle do you have any friends in the government any allies that may help you in your struggle. Definitely and i think last discipline though was a really good example of this we saw a huge insurgents of the phobic vine and in fact on the hudson primitive a kura understand us to go into our constituencies onto the ground in the space that i come from or the constituency that i represent theres a large somalian muslim immigrant community there and what we found what i mean we were literally in the informal settlement to 2 people were shot while we were there in fact that was South Africans but it was in selfdefense and what we really need and i think this is the important part you need politicians who are going to be on the ground unique want to see make us were going to take the gloves off since they will it speak with our communities lets talk with the marginalized groups and lets come to some sort of a social compact where we Work Together and im saying this because we have in theory some good policies that we dont have the greatest but i mean we have some good policies but we need people on the ground and we need people like myself to really acknowledge where the problems are and go to our people and thats exactly what we did in september in that community we were able to make some inroads but its a small example and really its a drop in the ocean and i think we need to be a bit more systematic an all pro choice i want to thank all our guests. For say a house on and off with a guy and thank you too for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our website out is there a dot com of a further discussion go to our facebook pages facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story and you can also join the conversation on twitter we are at a j. And side story for me and around town and a whole team here in the. For decades criminals made millions trafficking drugs through thailand when one least explores why the country has now become the 1st in Southeast Asia to meet allies medical marijuana. On al jazeera. It could be the biggest land grab in history. As powerful nations lay claim for territories under the oceans 21. 00 geologists are secret. Borders. As the struggle for resources intensifies some of the worlds most powerful scientists speak out. Oceans monaca. 0. 00 or move. Taiwan Scrambles Fighter Jets says the visit of a top u. S. 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