Inequality starts at the top ill use the u. N. Secretary general Antonio Gutierrez i says the world is at breaking point and calls for a new global deal is it possible does a pandemic offer a chance to change this is inside story. Hello and welcome to the show im sam is a that not everyone is in the same boat the 26 richest people in the world hold as much wealth as hard for its population life chances depend on gender race and whether or not a person has a disability these global inequalities are being made worse by the pandemic and the world is reaching breaking point a bleak reality laid bare by the un secretary general and tony a good target has delivered one of the most hard hitting messages he says the disparities start with the biggest institutions and they should be eradicated under a new model of Global Governance that guarantees a fair share of wealth opportunity and power. 19 is being likened to an extremely revealing fractures in the franchise skeleton of the societies we have built is exposing fallacy the fossils everywhere the lie that free markets can deliver else care for all the fiction that bait can work is not work. The delusion that we live in a post racist world the meat if we are all in the same boat is because while we are all floating on the same sea it is clear that some are in super yachts with others are clinging to the 15 degrees covered 1000 pandemic is approx home the tragic disconnect between selfinterest and the common interests and the huge gaps in governance structures and ethical frameworks to close those gaps and to make the new social context possible we need the new global deal to ensure that our wealth and opportunities are shared more broadly and fairly at International Level a new model for Global Governance must be based on full inclusive and equal participation in global easy to show. That we face even why they need qualities and gaps in solidarity like the the fragmented Global Response look of 1000 pandemic of those top institutions could have us who are speaking about are essentially the world bank and International Monetary fund they were established under the Bretton Woods agreement reached in 1944 by 44. 00 allied nations the deal created the post world war 2 International Monetary system thats replaced the Gold Standard the u. S. Dollar became the only currency pegged to gold and the reserve to which other currencies are linked the Fix Exchange Rate system collapsed in 1971 when the us ended the ability to convert dollars into gold. Lets bring in our panel into the show now we have joining us from nairobi max lawson hes the head of inequality policy it. In new delhi we have International Development economist and professor to go she and in london alexander dean hes the former chief of staff to David Cameron when he was the shadow secretary of state for education welcome to the show if i can start with j. I. T. How do you see the secretary generals call for a new global deal is it an overdue appeal for some common sense or a idealistic vision that will never become reality well i absolutely think its open to you and i am very glad that he did actually come out to it because the idea that its utopian it could never get translated its really a reflection of our lack of political will in imagination. And he said were really at the brink cannot point to. The extremes of inequality just threatening our societies our economies yet im able to cope with the pandemic that we shouldnt been able to do. If we had the proper structures this year and it would go with the existential threat of Climate Change and were basically. Attacked and so i think its absolutely essential for us to do something immediately and i think the secretary general is absolutely right. And the necessity for fundamental change rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic i like bags fresh and let me take it to max and say do you agree with that analysis its not too idealistic its an overdue appeal for us to save ourselves from ourselves. I think it needs to be said its incredibly important i think before coronavirus it we already had an incredible on the whole world where 26 they have the same miles it was the bottom half of humanity extremes of wealth beyond what was below me imagination money than anyone can spend in the bog times and then the huge numbers of People Living in very precarious blogs david and miss being hit by the tsunami of the virus the economic tsunami the house of normandy and i mean even 10 minutes hundreds of thousands of people out of work and everyones talking about hunger. And yet even here in kenya the rich are doing fine and the government even cut the top rate of income tax so its really missing any quality color if you can call it that its exploding what was already a very on the whole world very hard to count on people but the secretary general were talking about is it and how does the governments reacted to reduce the gaps we rich and poor and build a more equal world discursiveness all right let me take that sentiment to alexander do you agree with all of that is this vision really possible to be put into reality. Well good news now i dont agree with that so were going to have a debate. The heart of the calculus to figure out why gender is doing until. Hes one of the last president s a socialist international and i think that probably a place that. Would be i think its a mistake. That rises and falls depending on the level of commitment from its Member States here is the head of the organization implicitly or explicitly. After a time when. Some of them obviously inclined to play policy multilateral organizations i think particularly president come given the sort of americas past by not. Intimate singularly foolish to be suggesting that everything is wrong when we should be transforming our economic systems in the kind of way that the generals say but i can you will not just that i think this is not. Very positive. Its globalism and actually off Climate Change i mean basically this is a student agenda i mean the agenda. He should try again in elected politics where he failed in portugal in 2002 we should go and try and get himself elected if you want to implement change in the way that he suggests we should have a democratic mandate rather than sailing ballot box and then trying to deliver for International Organizations all right i can say. Is angling to get in that i guess you might have something to say about this thing the appeal of the secretary general being nothing more than a set of tide leftwing quotes. Well actually i cant really believe what i just heard me saying that it doesnt exist nor did it or didnt happen that inequality is not there its that what is being said that if you use these words that automatically some left wing student at gitmo im actually a little surprised because i think even the World Economic forum in the us but no doubt an example it didnt. Have all used these words and accepted that these things exist and that inequality is a very very serious problem but. It is quite unprecedented its data how unprecedented is it though for a un secretary general to speak so openly against the system which many would say he works with if not represents i mean the un Voting Rights that doesnt doesnt alexander have a point when he says you know youre taking a bit of a gamble when you speak out against the very institutions youre representing. Well i think its really just a question of recognizing i mean this is really the indication of how far could send our team and how her right and everything that is because secretary generals in the past have to have used much stronger language if you go back to how much older you cant i mean they used much much stronger language actually so its really a question of the fact that we now have in power regimes in the United States and in that section which im willing to give any age and openly and it didnt leave representing the interests of very small elite in their countries and willing to take all its National Institutions i actually do to crush them but if they are not able to think that it let me give alex a quick chance to come in and then i know max has something to say more go to max very quickly. Well i think there is a court room and there is an answer the problem isnt as its been outlined by my fellow activists who believe that we live in terrible inequality when its actually quality of life and length of like the people around the world has increased remarkably thanks to capitalism and free trade the problem we face and it is being corrected now i think is a point of the other panelist skin the sort of numbers that maxes is telling us is that yeah that may have been achieved but now it seems like the curve is going down with a handful of people having more or as much money is half the world its to give me the problem that we face economic nationalism and protectionism its not the suggestion that we should try to smuggle through left wing policies of socalled equal isolation which you wouldnt be able to deliberately ballot box if you actually offered it which is actually a very for a winner if you cant deliver democracy dont worry greats will go to International Institute get aggressive. And trying to liberate you read a Climate Change. Horses policy if you gave people a chance they wouldnt brutal all right max go ahead. I didnt i mean. Was over grid a bit where that is out there saying the secretary general is big brother i think if we look at the quality of the worlds leaders the juxtaposition between the leaders of most countries. Scale the problems humanity places there could not be a huge gap weve got right we demagogues who clearly dont know how to govern clearly dont know what to do next or carson is doing terrible terrible things it does shirt leadership i agree these are your sponsors but this definition of leadership is to speak up and say you want to happen i could just Say Something more on the popularity that we expand on and others organizations not universities in your have looked at polling around the world before coronavirus and i hope the current virus and some of these policies for instance greater taxation in the rich to help pay for the Comfort Recovery we saw millionaires coming in for that last week and thats a massively popular policy and so if it was put to the ballot box it would be picked up next leslie gelb in and presenting you the nominee or alex one solid alex dish on the house so look at all of you if you want to explicitly state a little bit tonight michael. If you were to try to say its usually something not universal go scripts of no thats all right lets give an exception now let you come back in on that next go ahead onix if you want to check the reach more heavily perhaps much more. Than run for office. And if youre going to do it yourself convince a Political Party to do so and campaign for them well even just saying the Actual Community should somehow be disability well government all right lets give max that chance. Oh i completely agree with you more than. I think the real battleground for the policy of. The nation has to be democratic but where i do disagree lose the sense that these in some way not popular policies because i think the public. And i think coronaviruses really contribute that people see that everyone is at risk they see the necessity poor things Like Universal Health coverage in the face of a pandemic they see that government can intervene really wants to help. Who are facing unemployment they want to see more of the current of course they do go on to go back to the bad guys they want to new york and they want to use that spirit to confront Climate Change weve got to go weve got some questions coming up about what the new normal might be but i can see jack before we get into that i want you to speak to perhaps one come back to that sort of narrative which we heard from the secretary general the idea that you know the one that even weve heard now from max that there is a terrible wealth gap and its growing what do you say to those who say as alex pointed out well overall the indicators even further even if we say you know there are a few rich people who are getting richer and the gap is getting bigger between them and the rest of us the rest of us have seen their standard of living improve have seen their life longevity improve even if the the gap between the rest of us and the super rich is getting bigger you know lets forget about. What we know and what we do now i think that the argument is a. The point is exactly that that we have that india property juggling of the public property that we have hundreds of millions of people a lot of jobs and i think that weve had a dramatic decline in the region thats an increase in hunger in the absence of my own country and im not even talking about many countries in africa and are you talking about just a pandemic or are we talking about a longer time scale im talking about the last 7 years where there was an absolute fall in employment according to officials and an increase in hunger before the pandemic and of the bad demick that a dramatic increase in hunger and poverty so yes things are not necessarily better in the last few years for a very large number of the people in our country and in. The top one percent absolutely double their income and their rent if you just put a 4 percent tax on 165. 00 people in india thats all just 965. 00 people a 4 percent tax on their record which they wouldnt even notice you actually get double spending and interest and theyre massively underfunded and basically right now during the pandemic we dont have beds we dont have we dont have hospitals we dont have basic medical care i mean it its really appalling the level of good city. So its very easy to tell and it is huge Popular Support what i just want to make is that you know its all right there is a lot democrat president someone but government should you know get elected for various reasons its a very complicated process the electoral one as im sure a lot of us know and it doesnt mean that you have got plans to do everything you like in any which we provide yes it really means that you must respond to democratic needs and to desperate crises that people are actually grew to again and definitely for things like this you consider referendum for alleged acts im pretty sure you would get overwhelming support in india probably in the u. K. Certainly in the u. S. We know the polls show that theres overwhelming support ok alex do you think some world powers might now perceive the secretary generals be a bit of a nuisance not of a threat if not a threat you know i do not tend to think that the groups especially in times like this are better use us concini which people are brought together and and share in that direction Robert Scoble and asked. Him to be clear i think what. I think is more like really that the americans disengaged from the u. S. Because of this kind of rather than less likely and i think when you start things like that we should be looking more who. Do you think alex who might see an effort to oust him after is you know 1st term. Was ousted after his 1st term after annoying. Well one word question and critical. I dont know inside baseball no 118 crew 6 well enough but i think iraq was that we also run the risk of being seen as targeting him because of this kind of speech which is this conversation ricks cred for some people because so. I think in some ways he may bolster his own position in terms of state but i think hes making a lot less useful and in the end you got to wonder what are these rules all do you actually want to achieve something or do you want to let chip into your time increase them thats a good point lets take it to max as a person you know you work with oxfam an organization that tries to help people in need when you hear the secretary general speak like that im sure one part of you is you know is is very happy with that does it worry you though the point which alex is making there that might prompt powerful countries like the u. S. Towards more disengagement that undermines the sort of policies you are working on. Again i think i think alex has a point i think you know what weve seen since the crisis. Is almost complete failure prone to naturalism and the precedent and situation where the us. A democrat or president can broaden this turning his back on the world and turning his back on the World Health Organization if anything appropriate the secretary general whos speaking about race through desperation im absolutely sure he has worked incredibly hard to turn the people but as we have seen were having a situation where the most powerful man on a is that like a playground but it so youre people have to speak up so i think it would be much much better and maybe we maybe we hope for a change of government here as much much better as we saw to the financial crisis and the leadership to go to a bar to convene and then for the most confirmations to do the right thing and particularly for poor mention because things by. Crises or increase a huge increase in poverty theres an estimate i hope a 1000000000 people could be pushed into poverty by this crisis and i see that every day here you can never have hunger in the slums were not ready for unprecedented so that workwise concerts a Global Action by the most powerful nations and we just havent seen that in the last few months so i think probably right the secretary general is exasperated that im here down on let me let jack the discussion i ask you could we interpret the support which some rich countries now giving to people you know have been had lost their livelihoods due to the pandemic as a move towards some of the principles the secretary general was talking about you know the idea of universal basic income is there any sliver of optimism that i think i get the developed countries to respond very significant keep it steady not just good which is cleaning it up to become suppose. Decoding unemployment assistance including you know various measures like that i think that has not been equivalent in developing countries but because of various inequality and much love this the space there are large debts that many of them bear their complete collapse tax revenues and such and so its been a very uneven response most developing countries have not provided that kind of support and assistance in india has been practically nothing provided to the hundreds of millions who must lead him and that i think its something youre going to another point that was being discussed earlier that has the secretary general under 90 percent good his position be any worse than it already was isnt the un already basically treated as irrelevant and isnt the fact that the us practically has almost stopped all Financial Support just when its really become little more than a kind of desperate talking shop in which theres soap keen to keep those powers happy that they will not see anything that goes against that of the point the large and so so i think you know i mean i dont know if hes telling it like it is its not is it going to make the situation worse because it was already thought that horrible and i think it will actually make many other people take the u. N. Because it made a good point they let me take it alex and say you know that its difficult alex to see a scenario in which world powers unilaterally give up the dominant positions in global institutions to further the notions of equality right and while alex you know you talk about how this sort of agenda needs to be put sorted out in the democratic space many would argue some of the institutions that push this kind of pursue this kind of policy around the globe while theyre not entirely democratic right they have positions which are appointed through politics in power. Isnt it necessary to have a bit of a wake up per call or scream from the secretary general. To point to where it is right but in the end i suppose my answer is towards that democratic discussion that we were having some sort of had agreements on if in the end for example we think the Security Council should be restructured and permanent 5 nations have relations changed somehow and meet in the made their way to the United Nations administered then surely the smart thing is to bolster its movements. Which africa needs more democratic and open minded and and less control position at the United Nations which could then be proposed in the un and potentially change the charter instead rehearsals are very he. Is making these kinds of sweeping statements and dismissive statements that just mean hes less likely to be listened to i agree with whats been said about the fact that he went seems pretty irrelevant but i am surprised to see a return or so to confirm. Or rival some strong opinions some frame where out of time though lets thank our guests very sorry that we you know we could go on endlessly on this but for now weve got really have to thank our guests thank you so much Matt Clawson Jr to go she and alexander dean thats will be back dont worry guys will be back to discuss this again so you can watch the show again any time by visiting our website aljazeera dot com for further discussion however to our Facebook Page thats facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story you can also join the conversation on twitter handle is at a j inside story from a sam is a that and the whole thing here for now is go by. Breaks everybody on this planet matters everybody has power when people need to be heard and the story needs to be told to hear him and development has moved right to the edge of the forest with exclusive interviews and indepth reports covert is a disease going to affect anyone any age ill just see him as teens on the ground this is the Main Business no big money or any person to bring you move forward when you documentaries and life needs. Talk to old is there are we as is the government not the necessary action to really address some of the structural issues we listen i still think that air travel is the safest mode of travel and to spend that we meet with global news makers and talk about the stories that matter on the old is there a conflict that is now considered to be the worlds worst humanitarian crisis how many do not know how to fight this or stop these hearts is really for sale and investigation into how billions of euros are made from supplying arms to saudi arabia a leader of the Coalition Fighting a war in the south the case is interesting to watch because the amount of money involved yemen war profiteers on aljazeera its the u. K. s biggest hospital with the eventual capacity for 4000 covert 19 patients built inside a London Conference Center it took just 9 days to construct with the help of Army Engineers dramatically expanding the Critical Care bed count and other similar sites on the way the actual london numbers could be much higher than advertised researchers say that huge gaps in Testing Capacity that the government is now trying to close extrapolate that across the country under spread of coronavirus appears far wider than anyone thought. Was. This is aljazeera. By team 100 hours g. M. T. Hello im come all santa maria here in doha and this is the news hour from aljazeera. I dont like the end game. But the dutch man is the real responsible man for a whole mess of things get personal at the e. U. Summit in brussels leaders are struggling to agree on a massive Pandemic Recovery fund even after 3 days of talks also in the news regional mediators propose a power sharing agreement