Recession is considered to be the worst economic downturn since the 1929 great depression. Im Richelle Carey and coburn 1000 measures halt International Trade shut down airports and bankrupt businesses tens of millions of people have lost their jobs. And for many being unemployed in the middle of a pandemic means not only losing their income but it also means losing access to health care so how can governments protect their workers and rebuild their economy the director general of the International Labor Organization Guy Ryder talks to al jazeera. Mr guy writer director general of the International Labor organization thank you so much for your time it has been said that we are all and this together but we are not this pandemic does not affect everyone the same as a condom is started to to shut down country after country after country what was your immediate thought about what this would mean for for workers for laborers. Well i think absolutely right in what you say we are all in this together but some of it some of us are in it up to our necks and others a bit less so my me just worry of course was how on earth as we take the necessary measures and i underline the word necessary measures to counter the virus and close down large parts of the world of work how are people going to get through this people who you know dont have big reserves dont have a lot of money behind them who rely on their work every day to make a living how are they going to get through this and you know i think as the crisis has deepened and the loss of employment has become dramatic those worries are now very much with us today these are the questions that we need to confront right now there are millions of people in the richest country in the world that are out of jobs there are thousands and thousands of them that are waiting in line for food if that is the state of things and the richest country in the world what does that say about how things are and other countries right so lets look at the global picture we estimate that in this 2nd quarter of the year the loss of jobs calculated on the reduction of working time is equivalent to the loss of 305000000. 00 jobs around the world and that is affecting all regions now in some countries people are being protected at least to an acceptable degree their own shop pretensions games there are social protection mechanisms which are keeping peoples incomes up but as you quite rightly pointed out even in the richest countries of the world some people a falling through the cracks we see people going to the food banks we see them going to the soup kitchens and then if you look at the developing world in the emerging economies where you know the virus hasnt struck quite as strongly yet in many. My to feel good nevertheless in that informal economy where its not for get 6 out of 10 people make a living were now seeing people really in the situation of distant shushan we estimate that 1600000000 an informal workers around the world and now suffering a very major impact on their livelihoods these are people who live day to day from the daily earnings and those daily earnings on average in the world of taken a hit of 60 percent in the 1st months of the pandemic so we do face a situation of potential humanitarian catastrophe so when you talk about the informal economy that is a significant portion of economies and a lot of countries i mean some Central American countries. Other african countries what. Do people that are part of that particular segment face i mean the informal economy predominates in many countries in the world you know behind that global average of about 60 percent informality if you look at Subsaharan Africa south the nation you can get up to 8090 percent in latin america in general 50 percent and the point about these people is in the 1st instance they operate outside any coverage of labor legislation and without any really adequate notion of social protection so if theyre off work theres no money coming in if they get sick they often dont have the chance to have access to health care and so in the most extreme cases what the close downs doing in reaction to the pandemic placing people almost in front of this impossible dilemma either they go out to work in dangerous conditions to earn themselves a days wage or they sit at home but theres no money coming in and theres no food on the table and ive heard many people say in these conditions that the. Becomes dying because of the virus will dying of hunger now one doesnt want to overstate it but the solution here has to be getting much needed assistance and here im talking about the basics of survival to these people so that they can get through this and damage these are the real vulnerabilities and i would perhaps underline just how many women would because depend on the informal economy full their livelihoods so these are already very stark realities and its happening right now so i think the governments that want to get a handle on the. Looking out for these workers is part of that is it not because of what you just said you dont want to put these people in a position just to feed their children are going to take a risk which may end up in fact spreading the pandemic so those 2 things go together do do governments see that the i think governments do see that they have these double responsibilities to protect the population at large and the workers im so sure im from the virus but then seeing them through this in terms of the economic and social well being so ive no doubt that governments understand this very well i think the drama that we face is that those countries where informality is high and therefore where this dilemma is felt most acutely that precisely the countries which have the least resources and capacity is to juggle these 2 poles in the air at the same time. Making very commendable efforts but i think theres only one solution on theres only one answer to this calculation and that is that we need to help these countries internationally they cant manage on their own in many cases and they therefore need the resources and assistance to get them through this and i think that necessarily must make his focus on one of the. Disappointing that you put it no more strongly than that features of the handling of this crisis. Theres been a lack of International Cooperation the appetite for multilateral cooperation of common purpose has not been there its not been there in sufficient quantity the money is there and that the money is there are you saying it its a matter of the will to get it to where it needs to be well look its a money theyre all not what we see is Different Countries different governments around the ground the world throwing a lot of cash a lot of resources but keeping their own economies going at protecting their own populations and thats fully understandable you know when the g 20 leaders had a summit in march they talked about the mobilization of 5 trillion dollars to face the pandemic down thats a lot of money but it was being spent by governments in their own countries this is simply the addition of National Level interventions what is not happening is this transfer of resources to those countries which are really short of them and that is where i think the the Global Solidarity level is below what it needs to be when i ask you this is it is because of a lack of a Global Leader i mean in previous times i would have saying that the u. S. With that gap and the the one that that type of agenda and just factually speaking thats actually not whats happening how do you think thats damaging but you know im old enough to have lived through the financial crisis of 20082009 you might recall that when the g 20 was set up and there really was a common purpose to to avoid the worst happening total financial collapse which was really on the cards at the beginning of 2009 and you know with all of the pain that we went through in that crisis there was an International Mobilization the worst was avoided and the Global Leaders of the day came together and made it happen now i dont think im saying anything controversial or particularly new. And i say that the commitment to multilateral cooperation to this type of International Action today for political reasons is a great deal less than it was that 12 will so years ago and yes this is affecting our capacity to help people to get through this pandemic and i think this is selfevident about the responsibility of countries there has been criticism that in the gulf that in the u. S. And in certain other countries are actually knowingly the porting workers that they know are sick and you talk about what the responsibility is there for countries for people that are for governments for people that are in their country you know if you asked me earlier on about the vulnerabilities of people facing this pandemic one group of workers who are particularly vulnerable are of course Migrant Workers around the world and theyre present in most of our societies you know my principled position would be that we should not treat my current work is any different from any other work is theyre entitled to have their livelihoods protected their entitle to have protected but we know that in some cases some instances a Migrant Workers do not enjoy that sort of equality of treatment and i think there are there are 2 things if you know we perceive that Migrant Workers populations are a problem in this pandemic either because that work is their labor is no longer needed or because they constitute a Health Threat and these people cant simply be treated of as disposable they cant simply be put out to the border they cant be left to their own devices and weve seen in several countries as well that migrants often live physically in douma tree situations in quite densely crowded. Internet so that makes possible which makes social distancing an impossible simply by virtue of how. And where they live and governments really have a responsibility to these workers to sort these problems out but not only that Migrant Workers dormitories can become a center for infection for others as well so there is a poem an enlightened interest here looking after a Migrant Workers properly will also look after the local populations as well this is really easy for me to say i think in practical terms either because of political will or the practical circumstances of these work as some governments are finding it difficult to act on these principles but they really have to as a matter of humanity and as a matter of self interest for their own populations are these particular communities that were talking about Migrant Workers how difficult how challenging is it to get Accurate Information to them i mean we already know that there are various myths lies misinformation floating out there around all levels of education people that are believing conspiracy theories and Bad Information thats just not true how important how difficult is it to get those most vulnerable communities the information that they need this is a really scary time youre right theres a lot of misinformation out there isnt there and i think its a time when we need to get correct and needed information to michael themselves and i would say equally important local populations need to be properly informed about the circumstances of Migrant Workers you know it is remarkable isnt it when you look at those frontline work as an isp and demick the 117000000 workers who work in health and social care around the world just how many of those work as a micro look because this is the real story about migration this is a real story about people often in pretty difficult circumstances contributing extraordinarily sometimes heroically to our societies and yet Public Perceptions often tend to be much more negative than that i think the challenge for us all is to confront prejudice with. Acts and then well see the facts show that migration is really a positive phenomenon for us all and that these Migrant Workers are deserving of our concern in our protection as much as anybody else so basically a challenge to rethink the term essential worker if you think someone is an essential worker. I think youre absolutely right we have redefined on notion of essential workers over the last months old to the would have thought i mean i think into my own mind is that we would regard the bus driver the supermarket cashier the social care worker a subpoena bill who really keep our economy is not societys going thats a realisation that we have today. But the fact of the matter is and i would reach a rate that 70 percent of these workers women many of them on microphones in normal circumstances these workers are on minimum pay if if if that at best they are undervalued work because we really dont give them the regard we dont value them at their true level of contribution to our society is the question i have in my mind is once we get out of this problem and once that extraordinary contribution in confronting this pandemic sort of recedes into our memory you know how were going to treat these people how were going to pay them how were going to look at the conditions of work is this going to make a lasting impression and lead to a change of a mindset in respect of these work is not dont hesitate to tell you that i hope that it will have a Lasting Impact we shouldnt fullback i think. Frankly inadequate treatment of these people which is characterized the situation up to now so basically. A. Better word to rethink this social contract that we have with people that we depend on well i really think that is the case. Even before this pandemic hits in the face of growing inequality is an injustice is certainly in the world of work and we seen this growing inequality for decades now there was a pretty widespread feeling that somehow the social contract. Sort of been put aside or to been broken people were thinking in these terms already and if the one thing that the band might do us a favor with is if we actually put into focus on ideas of what is fair in our society kohl to insert a degree of a fairness just basic decency in the way that people are treated and yes i hope that will happen there have been various packages and various countries. That can apply to get money to pay for their workers or to keep their businesses open a certain period of time and those arent necessarily the same thing the business isnt necessarily the same thing as keeping your workers are you finding that there are certain situations where big businesses are lack of a better term big footing really relief efforts that are really supposed to keep. The race among us employed yet well let me sort of start by saying that we have been encouraging and pleased to see that in many countries which have the means to do so governments have been investing heavily in job pretensions scheme furloughing following process is and also trying to keep the businesses alive during this pandemic as good reasons for because you know the extent to which otherwise Viable Companies can survive the rigors of the pandemic and the extent to which we can retain workers in their Companies Even if theyre not working today they remain attached to their company to extent we can do that the recovery will be that much better that much smoother and people will be helped to get through the rigors of the situation but what i think youre pointing to and i think youre right to do so is you know what sort of conditions should be attached to support to enterprises and this is a i think very important element of the public debate is it reasonable to sort of hand out cash to keep any Company Going small or big i think many people sympathize with the situations its called a Medium Sized Enterprises many of which dont have the reserves to last for a matter of weeks if theyve got no income and then youve got the big players you know the household name multinationals and i think were still working our way through that debate and in the debates that i see people are saying well we really need to look at the behavior of companies in terms of Dividend Payments in terms of. Their executive Remuneration Package is their tax policies are they putting into National Treasure is what theyre now seeking to take out of National Treasure is and again i think we come back to this notion of social contract you know whats fair whats the give and take of the way we organize a world of work visa for employers and working people and i think these debates are going to be with us by the way for some time particularly when the the bill is presented for everything thats been done to get us through this pandemic. Twice specifically mentioned women and im glad you have can you talk a little bit more about. The potential the realities of how women are often exploited at the lowest of times like this women a highly concentrated in lower value in informal employment in the world so when ive talked about the impact of the pandemic on informal workers there are 2000000000 informal workers in the world very large numbers of those are women and theyre often in the most difficult most precarious parts of the informal economy at the same time with the pun demick has forced us to focus on care in society what we see that the primary care provider is a women sometimes in paid settings or often in unpaid settings and this is the the double burden on women you know often when theyre in the world of work they do undervalued paid work but theyre also suffering from the fact that they take on an undue burden of unpaid care responsibilities so women have all of these disadvantages and at the same time there is straightforward discrimination we know that the gender pay gap in the world d is around 18 to 20 percent so that for every dollar a man owns earns excuse me a woman for doing exactly the same job or equivalent thereof gets 0. 80 so women have been and continue. To be massively disadvantaged to work there on the shop end of the effects of this pandemic and its a bit like what we said about the social contract this pandemic i think will again vote on the table the questions of how we want to resolve these basic injustices of what theyve been with us for decades centuries they dont have to be with us for decades and centuries in the future even during the best of times not enough people have access to health care in. The United States of access to sick care not have access to health care how concerned are you about a collective. That people are dealing with and what resources they will have to deal with the other side of it the pandemic again and its obviously the why this should be the case has shown us just how much we have invested in basic health care around the world only about 20 percent 25 percent of workers have access to anything approaching a comprehensive social protection so that means actually just getting sickle having a Health Condition is a drama the great majority of people in the world theres no way through it for many of them and for all of us really us understand that this is an unacceptable condition but look at the situations that have appeared in the United States in my own country if a worker does not have access to sick pay and asked to isolate themselves from their workplace they simply wont do it theyll go to work because they need the money and that constitutes a threat to everybody in society so once again in these circumstances a pandemic we have to go back to some very basic things it has been an ambition it has been a social goal of our society is to make sure that everybody can have access to health in our societies. The way its not beyond off Financial Capacity we simply havent done it it hasnt been high enough on peoples policy agenda and now. In these circumstances of demick well what paying the price of that not just the individuals directly concerned but all of us in society so you know i think the only lesson to draw from this is if we want sustainable safe society is if we want to move Forward Together if we take seriously this notion that we are all in this together then we simply have to start investing in these areas which have been ones of chronic neglect in the past and her role as director general of the International Labor organization do you have the ear. Heads of government that want to get this right that want to make some changes that want to be there for their workers look we bring together governments employees and workers in this organization we sit and we talk together i think many of the subjects of our conversation today have been subjects of conversation for a long time but we havent acted upon those conversations i think there have been very good declarations of intent but we havent simply moved to the field of action and lets hope that in a positive sense because its easy to talk about the negative aspects that will be a before and after to this pandemic and the after of the new normal as is frequently talked about can be a Better Normal it can be a Better Normal in which we do take seriously our obligations to provide universal health care we do revisit the notion of social contract and fairness and in so doing ensure the safety and stability of our society is so i dont think voices and all sorts of been followed through into action and now we have the opportunity and i trust that we will to make good on those failings of the past we are living the circumstances of up. Policy. When i revisit this 11 thing that she said about the money the money for these types of things are there governments and countries can do what they want it isnt just a matter of them wanting to do it. Political will is one ingredient i think to this story but its not the only ingredient because we hear constantly dont we that public budgets are tight the public spending has to be could taled so political will has to go with the means and often that will require us to revisit some of the basic policy also doxes of recent decades taxation is a classic case you know its all very well for me to say that the state ought to do a b. C. D. Needs to invest more in health care and education and many other things but they have to have the means to do so and that means society will have to take some choices about how we tax individuals how we Tax Enterprises how we fund the states and how we give ourselves the means to achieve our ambitions and so political will is one thing but very concrete policy choices have to be made as well the writer director general of the International Labor organization thank you for talking to aljazeera been my pleasure. Isolating times the listening posts cuts through the noise youve been looking at another side of this for an hour from the information around the outbreak but the rest of the listening posts on aljazeera. Understand the differences and similarities of cultures across the wound so no matter where you will be in the news and Current Affairs that matter to you. As the world fights the corona pandemic were learning more about this every day the new join our global community. How republicans gather to fight for answering your questions and i did honestly try to say directly that coming on on you tube as you were saying im concerned about the front line thrown at the great crisis and keeping you up to date. And weve seen countries back and beaten back to the street on al jazeera. I would not want for them to my entire family just for fun or a friend of mine because i cant change someone from the security video is released of brazils president to the foul mouth attack of police as he tries to protect his family. Hello im adrian for the get this is al jazeera live from doha also coming up rescue and recovery operations continue in pakistan for a passenger jet crashes in caracas
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