Alonso mocks decision by the International Criminal court to open an investigation into alleged war crimes in the occupied palestinian territory israel expresses outrage and says the court has no jurisdiction so will there be a full investigation and what can it achieve this is inside story. And welcome to the program back to bowl after nearly 5 years of preliminary examinations the International Criminal court has announced there is enough evidence to investigate alleged war crimes committed in the west bank. And the gaza strip by both israelis and palestinians palestine referred the case shortly after joining the courting 2015 it cited issues including israels building of illegal settlements and its military operations in gaza the i. C. C. As chief prosecutor fattah bensouda as 1st judges for confirmation on what territory areas under occupation the court could cover but she added that all the criteria to open an investigation has been met i am satisfied one that war crimes have been being committed in the west Bank Including East Jerusalem and the gaza strip. 2 that potential cases arising from the situation would be admissible and 3 that there are no substantial reasons to believe that an investigation would not serve the interests of justice and the announcement prompted an angry response from israel which isnt a member of the i. C. C. Prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu says the decision has turned the hague base court into a Political Tool to diligent in my eyes israel this is a dark day for truth and justice the i. C. C. Prosecutor has apparently decided not to dismiss outright the palestinian claim against the state of israel this is a baseless and a religious decision the court has no jurisdiction in this case the i. C. C. Only has jurisdiction over petitions submitted by sovereign states but theres never been a palestinian state. But the Palestinian Government has welcomed the i. C. C. As announcement the secretary general of the Palestine Liberation Organization side erekat said it is a positive and encouraging step towards putting an end to the impunity of the perpetrators and contributing to the achievements of justice this represents a message of hope to our people he said the victims of those crimes that justice is indeed possible that the United States has condemned the decision saying it targeted israel unfairly secretary of state might bump ala said we do not believe the palestinians qualify as a sovereign state and they therefore are not qualified to obtain full membership or participate as a state in International Organizations entities or conferences including the i. C. C. He added the United States remains deeply firmly and consistently committed to achieving a comprehensive and lasting peace between israel and the palestinians. Lets bring in our guests now in sarajevo toby cadman an International Human rights lawyer on skype from west jerusalem robbie sable professor of International Law at Hebrew University and a former Legal Advisor to Israels Foreign Ministry and also on skype from chicago ali abu naima cofounder of electronic intifada an independent online news publication focusing on palestine welcome to you all gentlemen thank you for being on inside story toby cadman im going to start with you to help us understand some of the legal last auspex here 1st Fatou Bensouda the chief prosecutor has asked for a ruling on the i. C. C. S territorial jurisdiction a state jurisdiction for the i. C. C. To investigate here thank you yes so 1st of all. The position the prosecutor has to. To to consider or to seek a ruling by a patrol chamber all the time. Torah limits of the jurisdiction of palestine obviously became a a state party and so the i. C. C. Has jurisdiction and a number of groups have filed requests for the prosecutor to to open investigation our group being one of them we have filed several so the question which is being asked is whether the i. C. C. Has jurisdiction which of course is wrong no dispute has jurisdiction to look at the west Bank Including East Jerusalem and gaza. The position also been taken by israel is the palace on is not a state city doesnt have the authority to to effectively be a state party to the rim statute so these are all questions that the judges are going to have to consider but in my eyes its quite clear the prosecutor has already taken a view the war crimes were committed at but its now a matter of how far that jurisdiction reaches so let me just clarify this the investigation will be launched only after a decision on geographical jurisdiction so is there a chance that they might might be no investigation at all. What she has said and a number of commentators have clarified within the last 24 hours is that as far as the prosecutor is concerned she has jurisdiction she does not need to seek the approval or the consent of the judges of the court because palestine had effectively referred itself to the i. C. C. For investigation it doesnt need to to or the prosecutor doesnt need to request permission but i think quite sensibly what she has requested a ruling on because one of the one of the most contentious issues is going to be the jurisdictional basis whether youre looking at the united 67. 00 lines and whether were looking at some other form of draw drawing the boundaries and also the question if because its the situation under review its not israel which is being investigated it is the palestinian situation so indeed so the call can look at crimes committed by either side but the question is going to be if those crimes have been committed on israeli territory dont tell us in territory whether she would be able to exercise jurisdiction and i think thats the big issue that she wants to have a ruling on and its and its a sensible way to proceed ali abunimah in chicago your reaction to this decision by the i. C. C. Are you hopeful that the i. C. C. Will move on to the next step and nonchurch comprehensive investigation well i think over the legal technicalities are important but we have to start by remembering what this means for palestinians for people on the ground and i think this will be welcome news for mothers like the idee who lost her son best. Daughter in law him and her granddaughters hal and jenna and a grandson ackermann when israel bombed their home in gaza on the 1st of august 24th team that was socalled black friday when israel launched a massive indiscriminate bombardment of rafa using warplanes and thousands of highly and. Inaccurate artillery shells the idea family is just one of almost 150. 00 families in gaza who lost 3 or more members due to the Israeli Attack which killed in total more than 2200. 00 palestinians including 551 children thats an average of 11 children a day killed during israels attack on gaza and no one has been brought to account for these actions israel has proven time and again it has absolutely no credible independent Justice System for palestinians so it really is past time for the i. C. C. To act and we see as rails reaction is the usual one of trying to wriggle out of any accountability by throwing legal technicalities at the situation Robbie Robbie sable in western islam your reaction the announcement acetylene theory a to these really government why does israel feel that its being unfairly targeted well theres 2 issues here 1st is the is the fighting and of course it cannot be ignored that the hamas bunch of the Muslim Brotherhood in gaza has looked dettori thousands of buckets and israeli civilian settlements but its the most contentious legal issue who is the settlements and here theres a very real legal law i think the i. C. C. Handling it all the settlements have be built in an area that is called see that the president of thought he has no authority whatsoever over it why because it was agreed in the only agreement between israel and the p. L. O. That settlements with the main in the interim period and they would have no authority to but these settlements are a little under International Law are they not. The question however the question is whether the i. C. C. Should deal with it as a criminal issue with that a state has to hand over. To supplement in its territory but the road to you where the settlements all are being to be agreement between the p. L. O. Knows what is not only. The palestinians though who become a long jurisdiction now who i think the court should say on the settlement issue we have no jurisdiction whatsoever and then the main issues on the fight you can hear again i must impose lies those thousands of workers be filed at israel civilian told by the hamas all right lets just take a pause and explain to our viewers what the i. C. C. Would be investigating the International Criminal courts preliminary investigation identified 3 examples of potential war crimes it found evidence that Israeli Soldiers and palestinian groups including hamas deliberately targeted civilians during the 2014 gaza war in which 2251. 00 palestinians and 72. 00 israelis died also that israel may have committed crimes by allowing israelis with stablish illegal settlements in the occupied west bank as you just heard and Israeli Forces have been accused of using Excessive Force on palestinians who have been protesting along the border fence in gaza since march of last year Ali Abu Naima Robbie sable makes a point when he says you know the prosecutor in a statement also ruled that there is reasonable basis to believe that members of hamas and the Palestinian Armed groups committed the war crimes of intentionally directing attacks against civilians so if the i. C. C. Proceeds with this investigation charges might be filed also against palestinians the palestinian leaders including hamas leaders well the different political factions then rise above their differences and cooperate with the court if this is the case. Well i think the 1st thing to point out is your guest in occupied jerusalem is objecting on the basis that you know he says how mass fired rockets well the i. C. C. Says we want to investigate that now i personally dont think that anything Palestinian Resistance groups did rises to the level of gravity where the i. C. C. Should be involved lets remember theres no moral equivalence between an occupied people resisting a military occupier that is attacking them with the full force of an army that is. To the teeth by the United States and the European Union and others on the one hand and people defending themselves with limited means and that shows in the outcomes of that horrific conflict in 2014. In which 70 israelis died and i think 65. 00 of them were Israeli Soldiers so it just shows that whereas israel massively an overwhelmingly killed civilians and injured civilians Palestinian Resistance groups overwhelmingly targeted and killed Israeli Soldiers but thats a matter for the prosecutor to look into the question is if israel is so worried about you know what how masted they should be welcoming this decision by the prosecutor because the prosecutor saying the court will investigate israels claims but it seems israel knows. That the real guilt and the real responsibility for what crimes is on its side and thats why its trying to come up with every knothole excuse and legal technicality including this hilarious one. But the Palestinian Authority has given up sovereignty over the land where the settlements the build up to built what about annex since that lets allow Robbie Robbie sable to respond to. Us allow robbies able to respond before we be. And back at toby cadman into the conversation robbie sable your response to that your issues just goes ok bye thats very interesting theres not a single israeli soldier a single Israeli Settlers in gaza its under the law of hamas the belittled from us of their own courts and the militia and somehow it becomes occupied tell you is this thing on the contrary they initiated book its attack dances will is about Israeli Occupation and said to me that you may consider it hilarious but they are also be assigned by the p. L. O. Or else which she greet agreed that you in the interim period the settlements but it may well be discussed during the finals that is what they would not be within the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority may term it a bit less but your timing also puts. All right tommy cadman peace joint join us into this conversation once again i just allow toby to give us his thoughts on what evidence to be the prosecutors will bring forward and you know if what if the i. C. C. Can get access to palestinian territory what will happen then i think i think their access is an important point. With respect to the deaths from west jerusalem to suggest that guards are is not under occupation i think is a ludicrous argument to be making and not one that is likely to be taken seriously. I think the problem is and this was one of the problems during the the last u. N. Commission of inquiry was the fact that they were not able to enter gaza to conduct any meaningful investigations everything had to be done from jordan. Having said that i dont think that the problem is going to be for the prosecutor having lack of evidence certainly the filings the we have submitted to the i. C. C. And also the reports that we did to the Commission Inquiry is is based on credible evidence of witness testimony on reports of credible organizations so thats not necessarily going to be an issue of course it is going to be a problem to enter the occupied territories and that is that is one of the issues and you know when were talking about the lore of occupation and whether that is a necessary consideration or not i mean the fact that you cannot get in and out of the occupied palestine palestinian territories demonstrates that it is occupied legal words cannot get in the kennel conduct investigations and so that will be taken into account and again i have to stress that if the arguments are always on both sides well there you have committed crimes against us and i think that this is this is something where great can these be taken the prosecutor has the jurisdiction to investigate crimes committed she has jurisdiction to take evidence and if the israeli authorities and the palestinian authorities do not allow her team into the country then it demonstrates an obstruction i will not allow her to to properly investigate the matter and gain going back to the question the court the quality of the evidence and the sufficiency of the evidence is unlikely to be a barrier because because there is an abundance of evidence showing war crimes committed by israel as an Occupying Authority and that talk for the settlements as well all right tony let me just ask you about another aspect you a formal investigation of course. Has actions could lead to International Arrest warrants being issued right against israeli officials we already know where the u. S. Stands on this but what about the European Union and other countries are they likely to cooperate with the i. C. C. Given the pressure that israel has put on them in the past. Well 1st of all i think youre quite right that the u. S. Position is going to be that they will do whatever they can to frustrate the process because very little that they will be able to do and get Political Support and condemn other nations i would consider to be a highly hypocritical stance for the e. U. Or any other country to take in saying that. Arrest warrants should not be issued should not be carried out against whether they are israeli officials or palestinian officials whether they are members of the i. D. F. Whether they are political leaders or indeed members of Palestinian Resistance forces the indicted i cannot see any european country going against the i. C. C. In. Preventing them Going Forward with their investigations because it is absolutely essential that this is a process that is supported it is an independent institution no matter what the state of israel or the Israeli Government says about it being an anti israel again i think thats a curse they have to be given the option to conduct investigations and if the evidence points to 2 individuals having been involved in the commission of crimes they should be arrested and put on trial where they will have all of the rights robbi sable why not let the i. C. C. Conduct the investigation some have argued that by placing pressure on both sides to address crimes the i. C. C. Investigation might in fact kick start the Peace Process again what do you say to that. It ignores the fact that israel has a impartial legal system which investigates any that the compromise mentality will isael a muscle is not investigated not even attempted open ended to best israel dollars when evidence of as an accusation Israeli Judicial Authority is invested and the further point about also being occupied the border between israel and gaza is controlled by this will work but the border between egypt and gaza is not controlled planes is no israeli somehow hala this could be occupied territory because we have a border which we close with gaza always open part of the try this is an invention of International Law which the. Only 2 Israel Occupied because we have a border with it which we ultimately moved but now it has another border with egypt i actually have an email response about. Well. The International Criminal court would not have reached the conclusion the prosecutor would not have reached the conclusion that it should go ahead with an investigation if israel had a credible and independent system of investigation but it doesnt and we know that for the past decades and this covers the last 3 massive Israeli Attacks on gaza whens thousands of civilians were killed and injured that nobody has been brought to justice it is vanishingly rare for Israeli Soldiers to be held accountable for crimes against palestinians and the very few cases in the past couple of years where that has happened its happened because there was Video Evidence that couldnt be denied and then weve seen Israeli Soldiers receiving ridiculous sentences of you know a few months in prison for cold blooded killings and. Of palestinians so there is no credible way for palestinians to achieve just that any let me ask you that were not let me just ask you this cant can the i. C. C. A contribute to accountability in a situation where as you say impunity has reigned for 4 years i mean if there is a full investigation will it really achieve peace for palestinians i think well its not a question of achieving its a question of achieving justice and were not talking about past crap just talking about past crimes were talking about ongoing cries every single day israel is confiscating an expro creating land for palestinians to build israeli colonies on it in a gross violation of the rome statute because call of isolation of that occupied territories israel is doing is one of the high crimes listed in the rome statute of the International Court these are crimes. Every day so this is not just about the necessary achievement of justice for pos crimes but about stopping and deterring future crimes so that the israeli officials from the Prime Minister the chiefs of staff or the generals will think twice about committing these crimes and saying well you know i may not be able to enjoy the impunity that we as israelis have enjoyed for decades i may end up arrested and in the prison cell like Slobodan Milosevic so i should think twice about continuing to participate in these crimes and its very necessary for peace and justice for israeli generals israeli politicians israeli Civil Servants and Israeli Soldiers to know that they could be held accountable for these crimes and we also have to understand the genesis of the situation the reason palestinians resist is because theyre under occupation ok because that meant that our act because theyre on the blockade so if we stop the israeli crimes and end the Israeli Occupation then there would be peace there would be no need for palestinians are and let all our problems to respond before i give the final word to toby cadman robbi save sable any of this month the i. C. C. Prosecutor refused to press charges over the 2010 israeli raid on the gaza flotilla and actually called for the investigation to be shut down so can israel really talk about the court being biased against it. The issue is and ill pick up the phrase general genesis of the of the conflict the current genesis is all they willing to recognize is well as a jewish state can exist mixed with palestinians i mean we can have a palestinian state next but they instead of trying to recognize and negotiate negotiate a border theyre trying to use legal wells inst as a way to bypass the need to negotiate and its a tragedy for the palestinians so its actually for us israelis have to sit with us negotiate Reach Agreement will be difficult it was done in the past job was done it and the palestinians can do it said of which theyre waging a tubby war using was unlawful which is a tragedy for them ok its not going to help with this these are all right toby toby cadman you have the last word where will this leave the Peace Process. So i think the important points to a very clear is that the very point the Peace Process is dead it is not written for there is there is no. Prospect of any peace under her Current Situation that on yahoo said said yesterday or today that this is a black day for truth justice well i would say it is exactly the opposite that this is this is a very very important day for truth and justice well leave it there gentlemen thank you very much for a very interesting and passionate discussion toby cabin robbie sable thank you for joining us on inside story and thank you as well for watching you can always washes program again any time by visiting our website at aljazeera dot com for further discussion go to our Facebook Page at facebook dot com for sasha a. J. Inside story you can also join the conversation on twitter a handle is that inside story from the funny back to one whole team thank you for watching i thank. You. The article. 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