Human rights abuses in kashmir abuses that weve covered on the show very recently but what about pakistans own contribution to that human rights crisis in kashmir youve backed armed groups like gesture mohamad and lush going to pay about that have killed civilians that have engaged in torture that have ethnically cleansed kashmiri hindus thats all undeniable isnt it its absolutely did. We not done any ethnic cleansing. In fact the but. The way that created the situation. I think nobody in the world believes that the dish needs in occupy wall street. Very much struggle. To liberate themselves from. The scene and. Force. The scheme its not 121 days i mean khaled weve weve covered the lockdown extensively im just wondering you can still have an indigenous Freedom Movement while also having pakistan support violent groups like gesture muhammad and whats going to say about you dont deny even your Prime Minister has admitted that your country in the past. Has backed some pretty vicious groups here that yes the past we have backed some Freedom Fighters and we had back groups supporting goes to the fight just that was a long time ago and nothing and youve done the best human rights by occupation force. That that has led to. Indigenous struggle to say to you so you know did you discuss marys but didnt the leader of gesture muhammad take responsibility for an attack on Indian Security forces in february that almost led to war between your 2 countries he did that while allegedly sitting in a Pakistani Military hospital bed hes caught noting attacks on india from pakistan your little bit where. Attack was a false flag operation deliberately to try and crack. Into what you had already and which was of course the lockdown being an expression of the august august. When and we know that india was going to this election liberate you know what to detract attention and the this does not really step this who was behind the obama ad that we have all use a false flag but the un committee which blacklist terror groups blacklisted gesture mohamad earlier this year or tried to blacklist the Group Earlier this year you know that theyve claimed responsibility for that attack and you also know that the Financial Action task force which is one of the worlds leading Global Financial watchdogs based in paris says has said repeatedly this year that your government is not just the past your government today is not doing enough to curb Terrorism Financing and Money Laundering inside of pakistan thats what the Financial Action Task Force Says are they wrong weed out of playing with most of the demands of the Financial Action task force but you also know what they meant that one of the members of the f t f is. Having to serious problem and we have protested object to to him. Yes but those that politicize this what should not be opened it. Up when it does not let me yes or to try to improve. Sort of youth group and comply they say youve only complied with 5 of the 27 action items theyve asked you to take on terrorism and Money Laundering lets just talk about mary independence you talk about them. Yes just briefly respond to the Financial Action task force has not. Shown that we are cooperating with them except that i think the general impression is that despite it yes. I mean up at this well. You mentioned indigenous Freedom Movement in kashmir but its not as if your government pakistan is offering customary freedom is it in pakistani administered kashmir known as ours or in your country which means free or independent kashmir the politicians are forced to sign a declaration there saying quote i solemnly declare that i believe in the ideology of pakistan the ideology of the state access into pakistan and the integrity and sovereignty of pakistan that doesnt sound like freedom or independence for the customary there that looked into your country a new government and listen this is the part of fish need that liberate it so strong and yet occupation and that it was going to link up with one it is not and occupy if you. Just no memory either is or is not free its not independent and the parliament they have then elections and if its part of the. Constitution to say and this declaration and we have said that we have not even focalized our border with china that they reported agreement impacts and guinea to the private settlement after the initial. So. To be clear and to be clear are you offering question marys independence yes or no does the pakistani government offering me the have said. They want that letter said i dont think you would support missions but the us people get it as you notice here in missouri the un pub as it does not have independence question on it it says join India Pakistan im on 3 would you out of the question on independence. We have. To sit and they want to. Us want it we have to go we should give the right to. The Indian Government says you have no credibility when it comes to criticizing their actions in crimea given your own actions in baluchistan your countrys biggest province where the pakistani government has dealt with a decades long insurgency by killing abducting torturing thousands of people even today. Listen india. Is an internationally recognized. But meaning. So bundle up son isnt and. Secondly we havent. Got the province makes its choices well this is absolutely no combat is a yes i absolutely no comparison 1st of all you say its an integral part of our country thats exactly what india says you blame india for supporting the logie insurgency thats what india says about it on in kashmir and just sort of the fact the voice of below its missing Persons Organization you must know the v. B. M p they say that since 1948 pakistan has quote been killing people and throwing dead bodies they say 45000 people have been killed or abducted by pakistani Security Forces those a pakistani citizen saying this by the way. A lot of them are not blacks living abroad im going to provoke that. Just on what. Exactly. You have updated your information we have no combat a bit but again. We have a commission which is focusing on getting out in force just. Yet. Anybody. Has a problem with. Ringback the lad but the fact of the matter is that the if it gets. In good actions in. The maddest mentioned a story whether it was up there the let us know but the understand how this sounds to a global audience watching this they hear an indian politician come on the show a few weeks ago and say pakistan is behind everything bad in kashmir then they hear you come on the show and say india is behind everything that is bad and blah to stop its a mirror image no i am not saying yes and. I think thats. Me accept it was a little it had been given a bit back and yet they say the same about you. Know what im talking about. What not understanding like you do what they dont. Know you maybe just need. To recognize that the disputed territory not an occupied territory but if you want is just to be clear. Between yes but it is a place where as you yourself say there are enforced disappearances you told me a moment ago that your possibile to stop in force disappearances which suggests that you know that that is not disappearing and not other human rights abuse in your the human rights and. Let it. Be that made it through also. But we recognise it and yet you link with it and we have institutions where you can. And i think this is the basic difference between and. Yes i think you made us point you made that i didnt. Look the bad as they looked at other things like. You know ok well were going to run out of time so im going on here to talk about india we have to talk about pakistan just sticking with your portfolio which is human rights a lot of people around the world look at pakistans pretty draconian and barbaric blasphemy laws is something i discussed with him on common and he was on the show a couple of years ago some pakistani politicians have tried to change him they got killed for speaking out against your blasphemy laws do you understand why those laws leave religious minorities in your country like christians and shias and hindus and ahmadis feeling still persecuted demonize target is. Us she has like not of my daughter. And that bothers them. So it is yet when we talk about my daughter but the sheer. If you have an oppressed Minority Community in pakistan or not actually really that havent been and havent been killings of shia professionals there havent been disappearances of has already she isnt balochistan there hasnt been a sectarian campaign of hiatus i havent been suicide bomb attacks and. We just imagined. By incident one attacking the other but to say that this yes that might well use fact. We have a slim simpsons and they are the minority i mean not the one muslim citizens yes then the problems but not the separate press that accusations last week charges. And took less than just you up to it a blasphemy yes we. Will stems were trying to destroy it and. So i mean that issues really dont you know bit and i dont mean that piece of it well oh my god Long Distance it doesnt have all us little of. Imagined all that were not seeing is that things are happening in the gulf of course the ahmadis who are in a tricky situation because you say theyre not muslims they say they are muslims heres what and how many spokesman said this year under your government he said how many have no religious freedoms in pakistan and recent actions taken by the authorities mean that the situation is going to deteriorate further and make it impossible for ahmadis to carry on with their everyday lives that was just 67 months ago under your government let me listen the enmities according to our constitution our anonymous and every right to. Come into politics just elections on non muslims they have every right to practice their religion but we dont have to demand themselves not muslim in order to participate in pakistani public life some would say thats a form of not. Dissipated update like but yes when we have to sign a form to get except the finality of the propped up on him and all of the look by our constitution and definition and almost so theres no denial of that right but if then says the got constitution is wrong and they want us to change that then im afraid that that means you say theres no doubt of rights you say theres not a lot of us in the show back in 2016 when i asked him ron can your Prime Minister if he would extend equal rights to ahmed if he said and i quote all human beings have equal rights anyone who is a pakistani has an equal right yet shortly after he was elected to office last year Princeton University economists are to for me on whod been selected to serve on the Prime Ministers Economic Advisory council was asked to step down because hes an homage why did the Prime Minister stand by him why did you stand by him if everyone has equal rights in pakistan if he was not a bystander he was in the us so lets be very when you think equal rights you have equal rights and the constitution you want to bring about changes that many people on stage again just which may improve with it the 18th amendment we have not bothered didnt want to bring about any change becomes ever more. But i think up that we had this was unfortunate and there was a lot of volatility or discriminatory ascension it no i think that it was the choice of the government played any but i think that. The better of me and the fact of the matter is that. It should not have been done in the way it was done if you picked up on the question we should never have taken that position the 1st the gentleman is not a bystander has been living in the state so its not that it was being denied a right to be part of the government that he was being asked to be an advisor and i think that. Is one of the leading economists ok but it was targeted because it was. Not the country i was. He was treated needlessly and i think that it would have been handled better but he was not denied any type of it you must say it was to come as an advisor a little sort of a look here in missouri thank you so much for joining me on up front. From world war protests over corruption and inequality to the popularity of socialist politicians like Jeremy Corbett and Bernie Sanders its hard to get away from the idea that theres something very wrong with the Global Economic system even billionaires and Business Leaders talk openly about capitalism being broken so is it really on the way out or all reports of capitalism is demise much exaggerated greece blakely is an economics commentator at the new statesman magazine in london and author of the new book stalin how to save the world from financialization 0 argos a financial policy analyst at the Cato Institute in washington d. C. A libertarian free market think tank thank you both for joining me in the arena how much of the recent protests that weve seen around the world in latin america in the middle east as one of the rise of politicians like Jeremy Corbett Bernie Sanders Elizabeth Warren how much of all of that is about the explicit failure of capitalism to protect workers to share the proceeds of growth to reduce inequality gross i think specifically when youre looking at whats going on in latin america at the moment youre looking at the massive pushback against International Institutions that for decades have been in place in 40 states are actually actively involved in foisting a very particular economic and political order on nations that simply democratic and have rejected many of those policies as a significant source of instability and many of those states its hardly surprising that people who are basically losing the right to vote to have a say over their economy are really getting angry about this stuff when you actually look at the countries that are seeing protests there which is interesting because some of the countries that have the most violent protests right now are the ones that have been most prosperous in the last 3 decades chile is by far the richest economy a latin america inequality there has gone down which hasnt happened for example in when as well or its opened up in liberalized massively it has trade agreements also unoiled going to be discontent thats driving these protests and i dont think its primarily economic disk. Discontent reflected by the figures anyway in your new book stolen you quote we are currently living through the death throes of fine slow growth would you be so in the book i talk about this idea of finance led growth being a kind of model according to which economies particularly in the global north have been governed for a long time and an institutional arrangement that privileges the interests of a small class basically corporations because of financial lies theyre far more focused on their standing in wall street the city Financial Markets and they will do anything to kind of short term share price even at the expense of long Term Investment and paying their workers. So that there is a very strong for us well i mean you know it takes a lot while the system economic and political systems to break down and we are seeing the cracks i didnt see the brakes on greece i have to say you know you look over the last 30 years in the big story of the last 30 years is a massive massive reduction in extreme poverty primarily driven by 2 things one since the late ninetys seventys china opening up to the world which had 900000000 poor at the time that it opened up in a house less than 100000000 still 100000000 to many but a massive improvement in then since the ninetys india doing the same thing thats the dramatic story of the last 30 years now in terms of indebtedness in developed countries including the call to within developed countries that is a phenomenon that i am concerned about in one that is i think driven a lot of the time by regulatory restrictions that benefit the people who want assets at the expense of everybody else but you look at the developing world in inequality globally has actually gone down it is happening the china case is really interesting right because the way that china has got to the position its in today is by breaking all the rules that those International Institutions want to impose on it it has had capital controls its not Exchange Controls it has not state ownership of many of the most important institutions. In the economy not to say ownership of the Banking System of Big Enterprises mentioned use which as we know but that is why its been able to weather the storm but it doesnt mean i mean today the main driver has been for interest in vestment from other countries and the fact that foreign capital could. Movie in the main driver of chinas growth of the last 10 years has been state investment in fact thats basically been the only right but a lot of a lot of the last 10 years is the smallest bit of this whole period your only point to this is the problem for your way of looking at the world but its not just socialists or people on the left who are saying capitalism has major problems whether its inequality or stagnant growth its also the International Monetary fund the World Economic forum the world bank hoard cool capitalist institutions are saying this stuff yes im a left wing plot no i mean i dont i would say its a little in plot but i think the narrative has to be differentiated here is theres a difference between pointing out specific problems with the Global Economy right now and i think there are plenty of them but i think most of the time theyre driven by misguided interventions by specific National Governments whereas the trend in the general adoption of free markets around the world in the last 30 years there is no question that its improved the world over all the worst of all not know where youre from billionaire radar earlier for example says capitalism must evolve or die but its not working for the majority of people do you agree with it no i dont actually know i think as i say the main driver what we want to eradicate is situations where people cannot satisfy their basic necessities in cannot flourish in a humane way around the world and i think we havent had a period in the history of the world like the last 30 years in which the vast majority of the global population even in the most deprived places have suddenly and finally gained access to the most basic essentials in the cities in that has been driven universally by liberalization i actually agree with the point that a lot of this has been driven by governments i think we have to look at capitalism as a joint venture as it were between the free market and a particular camp that form of their states and they have often over the last 40 years whether you look at that or isnt in britain reaganism in america you know various pinochet in chile right states have worked with markets to actually break down protections that existed so when you know someones whats your model greece what country one of them is it is real democracy and this is the thing that no this is. A specific country this is that limited knowledge of what germany and Bernie Sanders are promising is something that has not existed but thats what theyre demonstrating for a real world exam because often critics of socialism will say venezuela cuba extreme and north korea is the real world examples of people like yourself can point to and say no this works what are they going for there are places you work there are plenty of examples of d social democratic states if not socialist states providing much Higher Standards of living for the majority of their citizens thats something i think we can whats one or all the nordic countries right you know its interesting you have them up high have rates of legs and let me tell you something has Better Health outcomes better education outcomes all the sorts of. Things that people dont realize are not economists sweden has the highest wealth inequality in all of europe its privatized the schools its private a lot of the hospitals agree with you it has very high standards of living in a very large safety net that helps a lot of people but its not the picture that Bernie Sanders who said i was going to say was that those countries have historically had a much Better Outcomes because theyve had a bigger role for the state in providing all these things thats not only the lives that have been 40 years those protections social institutions Public Services have been eroded if you look at the most prosperous countries in the world they have the rule of law they have very well protected Property Rights in they have a big role for markets even within the provision of Public Service and if you look im talking about new zealand well australia nordic countries germany france even they are beginning to adopt the models as were usually degrees of the problem want to go for the phone when people in the u. S. In particular have this debate about capitalism socialism they say all social is really bad venezuela and then you say what about the nordic countries and they said oh actually theyre capitalist countries just like ours when you kind of are both ways if theyre so similar to the u. S. The more does the u. S. Do what those countries are doing in terms of regulation well it doesnt really like the extent and usually multiple u. S. Economy is similar to the norwegian economy in many ways it is yeah i mean its open to trade it has capital mobility it doesnt it doesnt. Have the same level of good wages minimum wage the taxpayer pays for more health care in sweden. The provision of health care is in many ways the same as it is and you know there is a point that when it is its not universe there in the its that which is that both systems are all caps or systems as and they are economies in which there is private ownership of the most important resources we need to produce stuff and those are also used to maximize profit and i supported by the state whats socialist today are arguing for is a step beyond that is socialized ownership of all the stuff we need to produce things and its democracy in our economy as well as in our politics that means walk ownership of it means you know workers actually making the decisions about what we should be producing its democratic control of our Public Services it means a democrat has to be clear are you saying that the public that the government should own all Public Services all utilities are saying that there should be Different Levels of a ship so should be nationalized ownership of some things that are natural monopolies but primarily we need an economy that is run by people for people we have tried this before right i mean worker ownership was something i was writing socialist yugoslavia it was originally the model for the soviet union and steadily the state took over more and more roles in yugoslavia it was simply deeply inefficient its an economy that was stagnant for decades if this is not a noble argument its a very inefficient way the evidence it is to organize an economy because its a court of one of the engineers and we run out of time do you have to ask a big question for how much is Climate Change per resident its completely changed the game is going to be impossible to solve the Climate Crisis under capitalism and it provides so much c to those movements that are actually seeking to provide about a logical answer you couldnt disagree more immediately and great to have to say you look at the environmental record of the socialist economies all across history and its been terribly poor lake baikal in russia is completely drink as a result of slave management of the whole me i get why you want to say no they actually let me know when saying we will go into the us they want you were in this is not democracy going to able to give a little example of our greatest to the greatest literate Human History to do a search for america the worlds most famous couple is to come or you would deny them well i mean but look at the evolution of Carbon Emissions of the United States in the last 10 years its in. Driven by private market you just have a look at this on the record i know you work for the Cato Institute which is funded by the Koch Brothers you believe in caused Climate Change of course ok and you think steps should be taken to tackle it oh yeah absolutely and they will be driven by innovation and probably by constantly that the inside of you think capitalism can solve the Climate Change its the only know its the only effective tool to do so if you look at the historical evidence we have to leave it there do you go grace thank you both for joining me in the arena thats our show up front will be back next week. Our planet is warming as never before with profound consequences for all life on earth for the worlds leading Scientists Say there is still time to plan it sets out the facts and the Science Behind the issues affecting our planet. And brings you what people across the globe are doing to the crisis around. We understand the differences. And the similarities of cultures across the world so no matter how you take it aljazeera will bring in the news and Current Affairs that matter to you aljazeera. This is aljazeera. Color from doha everyone im Kemal Santamaria this is the news hour from aljazeera. Gunshots in baghdad and an attack on the house of an influential cleric the tensions rising in iraq after a night of violence also in the news iran the search for an american student in return for a scientist a rare prisoner swap between the 2 countries but a new way of living how floating homes
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