Plan to expand National Health Insurance Coverage and other policy would see insurance cover seventy percent of the cost of treatment but doctors say the scheme would force them to provide cheaper care which would reduce the quality of the treatment those are the headlines the news continues here on aljazeera off the inside story i will see you very very soon. Struggle over corruption all power on the Anti Corruption campaign that Mikhail Saakashvili back in Police Custody for the second time in a week the former president of georgia says his rearrest is politically motivated is it this is inside story. Welcome to the show im sam hes a than he was the president of georgia than a governor in ukraine and now hes in jail on Hunger Strike the arrest and rearrest of Mikhail Saakashvili in kiev has stirred protests which evoked memories of the ukrainian revolution three years ago saakashvili supporters say his detention is based on lies they want to go they already freedom once earlier this week from a police van tuesdays dramatic scene started with Police Chasing saakashvili on a roof they arrested him for allegedly conspiring with russia against the ukrainian state saakashvili then escaped custody before Police Tracked him down again on friday former georgian leader says his arrest is politically motivated has been leading opposition rallies and accusing president had to approve of genco of corruption. So how did the former president of another country become prominent in ukrainian politics well satisfied he came to power in georgia during the socalled rose revolution in two thousand. Three but he ended up fighting a war with russia or that eventually forced him to escape to ukraine his former University Friend and ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko granted him citizenship for shanker also appointed him as governor of the odessa region in two thousand and fifteen after Russian Troops and next nearby crimea but the political allies have since fallouts saakashvili started leading opposition rallies against paulo shango who then stripped him of his ukrainian citizenship the former georgian president is accused of siding with russia now after decades of opposing the kremlin he also faces extradition home to georgia to face corruption allegations which he denies lets go to our guests now joining us from kiev by skype is Alexander Coleman former head of the Public Council for the Ukrainian Foreign ministry and from moscow gay mark of a public spokesman for president Vladimir Putin and former russian member of parliament and joining us from london lead given again an analyst and principal economist covering russia and ukraine for i. H. S. Global insight good to have you with us lets start with lillete so is this an Anti Corruption champion hungry for reform or a politician hungry for power how do you read the struggle villi against poroshenko i think this is a politician who enjoys being in the limelight but at the same time his legacy suggests that he does see the path to fame through breaking corrupt him and bringing change safe bit of a marriage of two worlds a politician who has shot to fame because he fights corruption do you agree with that mark colvin moscow this is a person who does have a track record of trying to bring change. I think mr saakashvili is very caught up to put it to you sean and he has been very much caught up in georgia and he is on the deuce a geisha because of corruption and missiles guys who can also be in that account after the new created when he would be in had those there are this administration is fighting between talk and option but it is run and the one knows them in power mr but ive got another some kind of out of power so you dont know how i got this done because i dont see leisure corruption charges against him is being politically motivated whether its in georgia or elsewhere is of course politically make their way to buy but i shant go because. Psychiatry to try to or because today is some kind of mass protest against mr Parnell Shankar and mr secretary to getting directly mining from different criminal guards and all sorts. I see but i shant believe this man has got to try to organize some corporate i gave against family of me sort of but i shant go its a very door to games bottles and but i shank guns like im sure there are criminals let me would you agree with that analysis is there enough evidence at this point to say that both are as corrupt as each other. No i think there hasnt been any. Trials any clear presented evidence i think these are. Quite strong allegations against two leaders two politicians and just to also bring in one element one of the allegations against release that he has apparently links to oust ukrainian president beach and only cars that are linked to him and theyre based in russia so it just sounds quite implausible story from my stand from my point of view however we as i said we really havent seen any clear. Evidence so these are all still allegations of course it is all set against the backdrop of the ukrainian politics and ukrainian politics has always been very vibrant it has always had a number of politicians who are really sometimes mostly populists rather than politicians who are sort of technocrats who care about the results so really sort of blends in into this backdrop and it is very easy to call him corrupt against this backdrop because there are some people who are totally disappointed with the. Political elite and believe that everyone is corrupt but as i said where where is the evidence all right so a lot of smoke very little evidence of a fire alexander why did saakashvili then actually fall out with poroshenko who actually brought him to ukraine made him a governor. You know i think it is very hard to find somebody in ukraine and only titian or plead for them to police who have no corruption motifs but i think in another way. To this the billies asian of the situation in ukraine which has already received a because of three trouble with europe and has a Small Economic growth after their odd because who are you who have benefits europe you see maybe there russia because the question or who it could be beneath you sell if not to become three were to grow in from you know we have this some bill is the shin but after the walk up to the crate me us the peroration only one country that you know i have a been in feats so this is the believe this to visit you a situation in ukraine because this country have a. Lot of problems. Excluded from their g eight admitted from here all in begin to eighteen. Lot of sunk shame to you i think it is a bit debilitation for for him there are users because. I think the government and of russia need to show the problem in ukraine what you see the problem you see it is ukrainians against had the first money or not it i think oh there could be best mark yourself or next election in russia. You know the show ukrainian is not filling in because the straw if you can not in my not my words. Let me give the chance perhaps to markov to come back in on the sort of analysis the suggestion is that we get from moscow that everything is corrupt. In ukraine is motivated markov more by a desire to destabilize the situation in ukraine rather than factually analyze whats going on there how do you respond to that. Situation a new career in religion just a realist or kind of civil war you could read between the criminal group of what was the National School good have a pow i mean in key ways support those a youre not the face of Veterans Service on one hand and antifascist at a viral on done boss or own on another hand of course you substitute upon the sick idea that mr saakashvili can get support for our National Side because mr saakashvili a former georgian president. And was an enemy of a russia of kremlin more than ten yes its mr slick actually were who gives an order to kill an action soldiers and to mr putin many time claim a very a. Strong was a win or lose it was against mr saakashvili now i ever was in your career in calais me and he is open and that they get support from oz more score but its on the if you are propaganda they are speeding to the United States and jettison sent us to say more exactly because cia agonize that were going to nationalistic cooper three years ago or a gainst or russia oks you could always go back there anyway so then let me let me give a chance to alexander to come back in on that suggestion. Isnt it the easiest way to discredit a political rival right now in ukraine the narrative goes to simply accuse him of being an agent of russia. Alter nationalist no one party has no please no it doesnt and. No one nationally you dont know up to thirty now you cream of fish will politicians this is the first if we are talking about ultra nationalists ok listen if we are alexander lets not go back too much into the demonstrations of two thousand and thirteen were going to focus now i mean how plausible i think the point which moscow is making how plausible and believable could it really be that a person such as saakashvili who fought a war with russia could end up now being an agent or somehow connected to pro russian businessmen. In ukraine we have a lot of muck to realises about condit shouldn. Mr perle because surely we as a coach are that he was a money poor pit of reviews down at the moment also we have turnips recording about connection hes forced out her to organize these on my down and also we know about hes going to action weve business interests in obvious a region to that is what i know now mr easy into russia he have you has a protection of russian government and he has a business interest in you prince to you that is why we are not talking about mr sarkozy who really were talking about money we are going from russia to direction if that is the first but the boat was an enemy or for russia you know in the police especially in the political sphere or does not make you was eight or ten years before because now you could be booed are shaking of this the bill is a sham instrument of politics ok its no matter what ok before we go back to late i give a brief opportunity again to surrogate to perhaps comment on that the prosecutor general of course has repeated saw that saying he has evidence he says evidence of course we havent seen any of that released yet linking he says saakashvili to could a chain co ukrainian businessmen the alexander was talking about a moment ago and this shows a connection that russia wants to destabilize ukraine by bringing back the pro russia president is elements from his administration in your analysis do you think that moscow has that desire to try and bring back people connected with former president yanukovych into. Russia doesnt want to be in coma president putin of course could because of course she didnt march on board people in the ukraine because he betrayed he is our support us. If you could according to you do you want to a storm were to nationally brooch three years ago or and put all these criminals on your nuts us to appease them but he didnt make a z. Says that why nor would you trust them you said it you know quaritch in ukraine and they were understand this clear but to look boss but i shant Council Claims ownself that theyre supported by could have been but what stops them is really well nor has any me is all for russia what reason for russia to support or an animus ok late weve seen some gusts in our pull down to the police that very dramatic pictures on choose they didnt really know how popular is he well as the. Speaker for me a crane i mentioned politicians in general in ukraine are am i not really enjoying public trust that the moment. But given sort of that atmosphere where there is a bit of disillusionment with political leaders really has been doing compared to president pershing career literally well. Having said that we didnt see a large number of people coming on the streets we havent seen to repartition of mind on two thousand and fourteen so that just. Despite the this discussion that we heard a second ago there isnt really an appetite was first sort of my at the moment you dont think that will grow and come with time is going to be saying hes going on a Hunger Strike hes calling on more people to come out on sunday for demos and so on and so forth. I think there is definitely a discontent amongst many ukrainians. But it wont be centered around personality it will be centered about the idea of politicians not delivering on their promise of reform not really fighting corruption to fall not raising the Living Standards faster that they that they promised to do and they could have done perhaps and im saying this perhaps as an economist because ukraine has been dealing with a lot of difficulties both domestic and external under have have made some achievements to be fair so there is a lot of social discontent and were really heading to two more troubled twenty nineteen when well see. Politicians again fighting for for their city in the parliament and of course for the president ial visit so against this backdrop we might see people so coming out to express their frustration with the lack of reform. But its coming back to circus feely because he has been quite divisive character in the sense that some ukrainians find his tactics slightly question of all because he can be abrupt. And there is element of populist to two sections. He may not be that unifying character despite hes very positive legacy in georgia in terms of bringing reforms and to extend because he was so harsh he didnt he didnt really spend too much time thinking he would just push through reforms and is managed to elevate a country that was almost a failed state to two levels that perhaps are envious for ukraine and particularly for russia at the moment so yes it could be a trigger but perhaps not a unifying figure in and in future potential protests or so he might not be the man to lead to but there is some level of public dissatisfaction and we come back to so again moscow from the russians perspective do you think that the dissatisfaction can reach a level which makes the current government in ukraine. Because of all our shorts and actors a previous issue i would say is that for what that entails missiles like us really very little because ukrainians citizens done trust and see him as some kind of soaring share my going to. Reach would jump from georgia to ukraine bottles are probably me that are not popular that i toss like i should have but it does seem really here high on pot point out here of the all current ukrainian Political Institutions me set up but i shant very much unpopular government very much unpopular is because theyre moving towards the border to ukraine to suck us for all the evidence for that on the census also editor would understand that as it is you can illegal government but i shant legal president because he a comma he was cleared by americans that skews we are not by for we pacify but it is actual actions same i hope it just takes a little bit on the ukrainians in the east of ukraine but surely not the whole country doesnt see the current government and president as illegitimate right. Na na na na na na you also take into account morsels a government in the water that morales illegal but the way in ukraine was kept some kind of brand of criminality and edge and so was there American Television satirist who are going to just polish to make you couldnt anti russia all right lets get it now that shes lazy to alexander the comeback in on that i have a feeling you might have a slightly different perspective on that go ahead on xander. All these very interesting leasing where its from russia has always be seen information. Been there on the wall the problem is europe United States maynt i know but you know its very interesting because they know everything about everybody but they know the book inside of their problem what do you have about crime and ill about governments about should know how to present them change the constitution to be the president of thought time of fall to people yes but this is a problem of russia and god judged them so there are about you bring up costs i think the leadership leadership is a move to responsibility what a person willing to take on in ukraine there is a sense the issue when a politiques political leaders did create did it didnt create themselves over there because of their leadership will buckle in this election ordinarily people are ready to support anyone. Who i thought come up to for change this is a real problem because we need to change but without support from russia and was ok advice is from the police explained russia because they try to help everyone to change the situation corruption the police but first of all they need to look themself longmuir all about us of course we have a problem we have a problematic situation with government as president who as the oh no hes a colleague are too but we own nation will decided what will to do themselves without any advices all right we got a couple of minutes left let me give it to lead to new touch actually upon this and i want you to go into a little bit further detail when you look at some of the economic stats nearly the World Bank Says poverty remains higher than precrisis levels and over a quarter twenty six point five percent Economic Growth remain. As modest two point four percent unemployment slightly improved compared to last year but still high at nine point one percent you think that people who came out to protest in two thousand and thirteen two thousand and fourteen would be really disappointed in their leadership fulfilling their aspirations at this point. I think. We have to put this growth rates. And levels of unemployment in the context of former soviet states and on this occasion id like to compare it to russian growth rate which are a lot lower than what ukraine is reporting. We are seeing that ukrainians three justing and rebalancing their economy. It is a very difficult process and its always a dollar for a politician whos leading a revolution and squares and promising changes to deliver them were going to three years practically thats not possible to rebalance an economy that has been plagued with heavy dependence on Russian Energy import with corruption would uncompetitive structures to do this with interest three years its impossible but they hope that they are taking steps the problem with taking these steps is that they have been somewhat slow theres also also the issue of. Cooperation with the i. M. F. And painful reforms as we know from other countries when you go through austerity measures and restructuring initially you see set rack you see setback in Living Standards of of ordinary ukrainians so this is what were seeing but i think look looking through the medium to long term ukraine is on the right path all right perhaps this current leaders will go but the next generation hopefully will do what they wish they had that is a positive you know in the. A good place to end we always like when the polls are im sorry so that i can see you shaking your head im sure well have a chance to discuss this again in the future but lets thank our guests for now Alexander Coleman so again markov and millett give again and thank you to four g. You can see the show again any time by visiting our website zero dot com for further discussion head over to our Facebook Page thats facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story can also join the conversation on twitter handle is at a. J. Inside story from a sam is a dad and the whole team here for now thanks for joining us. Still. Thinks shes itll be alright everything. Else of us fail to. See if you like kids eagle hunters still row mungo is rugged mountains but how long can their culture survive the modern world went to a nice meets those determined to save their ancient connection to the magnificent golden eagle at this time when aljazeera thanks love to make amends to suffering because behind the suffering a millions of taxpayers because most taxpayers never go away is a new one born every single day a nineteen it is an Urgent National necessity and we put it we officially request the patient of the support mechanism we created together because i happen to live in creeks somehow im a sinner im a bad person. Thats machine at this time. No let up on the anger and the call
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