Members it says he was shot in self defense its inside story next stay with us here on aljazeera. We understand the differences. And the similarities of cultures across the world so no matter how you take it aljazeera will bring you the news and Current Affairs the much of. Which is iraq. Kenyans have had two elections the Opposition Leader wants a third countries divided and there are fears of another cycle of postelection violence when that happened ten years ago eleven hundred people died so what does the future hold this is inside story. With. Ellen welcome to the program im Richelle Carey kenyans have voted in two National Elections since august and theyre now calls for a third Opposition Leader raila odinga has branded the president ial Election Rerun a sham and wants a new poll within three months the vote on thursday was marred by violence and low turnout and your data supporters refused to cast their ballots banding behind the slogan no reforms no election so would a third election make any difference kenyas opposition seems to think so hundreds of people joined oding his rally on sunday in one of his strongholds but there was also violence after the rally and police pain blame opposition supporters for that for the past few years cain has been a symbol of stability and Eastern Africa so how did we get to this point the first in meant to be only election this year was on august eighth president hurrican yatta won with fifty four percent of the votes but by loading a challenge that result citing election irregularities and possible hacking and the Supreme Court agreed on september first it nullified the august vote. And scheduled a new vote for october but it didnt get challenge that plan saying the same Elections Commission that was behind the august poll was in charge and can reform that quickly enough so he withdrew from the election and encouraged his supporters to boycott the ballot as a result kenyatta won nearly all the votes cast on thursday though that elections legitimacy is now up for debate its bring in our guests now for this discussion in nairobi o. T. M. Day a molo member of Nasa Coalition and london agnes gitau specialist on east africa also in nairobi can gerry one bogo member of the Jubilee Ruling Coalition and thank you all for joining me i want to start with you agnes lets go back to the very very the first election not the second one in opitz ensley the third when the first election back in august was that a a fair and credible election to you. Well as go by what the Supreme Court judges say that that that and action was mud with irregularities in it the gun the t. So based on that and of course the call by run low dinka there was some dispute on the election so it was unfair to all kenyans. Attend a your your thoughts on the very first election. Well the first elections were not properly conducted and it was foreseeable because we pointed out it would need to be done but the electoral body did not do them with therefore had to go to the Supreme Court and those privileged one of the advocates we pointed out to the court and the court agreed with us which is why the court seed that they need the next fresh elections to be held must be in strict compliance with the constitution and the law which is to avoid the irregularities and the legalities and fortunately that was not to be ok were going to come back to that point i reckon gerry first i would like your thoughts on on the first election and which are her kenyatta one i personally think that election was free and fair but then the thing about. Following the law is that the only institutions in this country that can determine whether it was free and fair were the Supreme Court and i beseech and since the Supreme Court decided in given order that it was not free and fair if youre to be repeated we did to that as you believe and we said ok were going to go back and we do insist that the only people who can determine whether an election is free or fair is a b. C. Or the Supreme Court and agnes let me ask you this and you all reference the Court Decision to say that there needed to be a second alexion but that something went wrong with the first election and then theres a determination to have a second second election can you actually fix what was wrong with the first election in such a short period of time. I think it was it was almost impossible within the time given by this print code of sixty days was almost impossible to to make to ensure that you know all the systems were in place to run a fair and credible election and that was you know that every kenyan felt that it was representative of their wishes so somebody the time period was almost you know unattainable. But you know we keep going on and on about who won who lost i think where we are right now the political interest me currently in i think is almost we need to ignore what happened on the eighth and so its where do we move the country now we are where we are now how do we sit down and have you know mature dialogue where all kenyans are. Involved or represented and move the country forward because they would keep on going on we want the guys from the jubilee side so they want their lection and theyre probably justified to think that and the guys from the nasa side the Main Opposition Party claim that the election was stolen from them so we obviously cannot get anywhere what we need to be discussing right now is how do we move forward because were from these election there is a Bigger Picture and thats kenya and the kenyan people a lot of great points you made with that certainly has to be broader than the election and im going to come back to that. Day your thoughts on what i just said that ok you all your side wanted another election but were you frustrated. Obviously you were because of the boycott but reaction to the fact that they wanted a new election the court ruled that it had to be so soon and there wasnt necessarily enough time to change what would you say went wrong in the first one. Well there are two things to be said about that first of all when the court said fresh elections to be conducted within sixty days it was in accordance with the constitution and i personally believe that if all people are interested in credible fair and legitimate elections we could achieve it within those sixty days the situation we have is that the improprieties and irregularities that we saw in august gave an advantage to the incumbent president who are looking at there for him and his do believe were not interested in making sure that we achieve credibility within that period so what happened is that the Opposition Leader. Decided to invoke the law as interpreted by the Supreme Court by pulling out below as interpreted then meant that we had an additional ninety days now instead of using that those ninety days they i b c and that you believe decided to stick and insist that it has to be within sixty days i think that the point that has been made i think. But we should be focusing on the future of this country is a good point i agree that there should be discussions but the discussions are not about you know sharing government as the president said here before the discussion should be electoral justice how do we get to a situation where we can have free fair and Credible Elections in kenya ok entering like for you to respond saying hes saying that. The m proprieties irregularities in the election process favored her and that her and his supporters dont act didnt actually want to do anything to fix a system or change your response to that. And you first and foremost who cannot and you believe do not actually have in we could have done to the a. B. C. Their ability is actually an independent electoral body it runs its own systems dont run some processes. The Jubilee Party and. The party i belong to and the president himself have been very consistent in saying that they do not want to interfere with. So they want the a. B. C. To fix its own problems and get an election running the way the Supreme Court ordered its important to remember that this repeat election was not the desire of giglio working out or this was an order that actually made him very upset when it came through so for somebody to say that it was in his interest not to do anything about. Its to its to present or to presume that he actually had the capacity to something about the a. B. C. And id this is an independent body its also important for us to understand that we cannot now judge the election that happened on twenty six to be illegal or irregular again the only people who can make that decision is the Supreme Court we already have for example our friends in the opposition already determining that the election that was held on twenty six was illegal. We do not have that position this is an opinion of lawyers yes but one of eleven thousand or let me ask you about what you can get another smart lawyer a different. Reality about that in the civil i can get another lawyer a different position ok all right fair enough there all the lawyers i get it ok but you were just a moment in that second election her economic net ninety seven percent of the vote obviously a lot of that as a result of the boycott but does that i mean technically it was a victory but does he really have a mandate yes he does because remember in kenya there is no obligation for someone to go and vote second we were having a repeat election two months after the first one when you have water fatigue second you have one of the opposition one of eight candidates has pulled out and said it is going to work out and not only has he pulled out and said to boycott we are seeing what looks like militia on the ground stopping people from going to vote so of course were going to have a low voter turnout but that low voter turnout again compares very favorably with other parts of the world where. Elections have been called in fact kenya is actually doing much better than any other repeat election called anywhere in africa at forty its close to forty percent again i think its important for us to wait for the final adjudication of exactly how many people signed up what and what the percentage is for us to make that declaration but i think for example im a member of parliament for one of the constituencies we had an eighty one percent voter turnout on twenty sixth of august we had the same voter turnout. So youre going to see the october where the symbols are turnout of august so some parts of the what some parts of the country do not come out toward strongly some parts of the country came out toward strongly but again it is that its not an obligation this is actually no condition that every can and must come out and what ok and the constitution is very clear it determines there we know based on the people who actually turned out to water the water thats all you can do is how you can do is count the votes absolutely thats true but having said that religion is positioned to get the supporters to boycott the vote what would you consider that effective was it was it self destructive was it i dont know how would you characterize that. The call by raila odinga and his supporters and those not just his supporters those who insist on for elections to boycott these elections if succeeded one hundred percent we have nineteen point six million registered voters in terms of the electronic what identification machines it appears there are only three point five million voters who are identified that is way less than twenty percent we dont have of course an electron in an electoral body that is showing as a share and that figure is inflate the inflated to about seven point eight million merely to show that perhaps there were a number of people who voted but everyone saw the empty president who cannot or does not have legitimate monday it to be president you cannot have amended win more than win over almost three quarters of the literal court in the end it was not just a boycott it was a vote of no confidence in the literal body of work and no confidence in the presidency and the need to have legitimate elections let me bring agnes and because i want to talk about some of the rhetoric so you heard a saying that you know it doesnt have a mandate or you can yada has called that the chief justice and his colleagues on the bench hes call them thugs theres a lot of really extreme rhetoric on both sides how concerning is that. It is absolutely unsettling and to know where kenya has come from you know dating back to. Situation back in two thousand and eight to hear politicians speak such language is very unfortunate it has a huge impact you know just from the eighth of august to where we are today i could only has lost tremendously you know according to you know private sector lions over six billion dollars ive been the last just within a space of two mint the Kenyan International debt has climbed of with thirty best point to six percent its unfortunate that this rhetorical have an impact and what theyre doing is making their supporters agitated and its not what they need i mean and to hear comments of Something Like militia both by honorable route turned good jury has just repeated that you know people who are desperate to see some leadership both from the jubilees side and their nasa side will not benefit from such rhetoric and i keep saying our democracy is very messy as weve seen but i know that our kenyan people are very resilient but what the what im seeing on the ground unfortunately doesnt convince me that we war we will get anywhere and i want to go back that there isnt a clear winner no not really loud and not a war. And i think these two gentlemen who are very committed to kenya and i believe both of them are very committed and they have contributed to kenyas democratic process these two gentlemen need to sit down for the sake of their legacy in the sake of their family names sit down together and ignore the political advisers you know ignore the politicians of continued to pull us aside and ill say this is a good jury and i know youre a member of parliament i think politicians need to take a back stage and let the leaders and you know the main two names that are on the ballot box or working and riot loading to come together and have dialogue in this something will been calling will be in and i guess you know ive been calling. Since the beginning of this we didnt have to be here we didnt have to spend so much money that the country already doesnt have to to have another election that bring us to do that doesnt give us any solution at all so agnes you said you said quite a bit there and yes youre right youre challenging the the politicians to the kind of step back and left these two leaders who you say love the country come together so weve got some politicians on the show if you put that to you can jury what about what agnes is saying that that there is so much on the line that these two men who love kenya so much need to sit down and and figure something out and start looking back. You know to seize it first and foremost its no longer about these two men this is a country of forty Million People and this is what a Million People have decided what they want to i had my brother out into a mall or speak about the fact that one thousand Million People who decide to vote in august during the elections in august two thousand Million People came out to vote for me and people you know come out to vote who wanted it up seven and a half Million People came out what did you have the people come out of what in august and again if this election was held again one injury late on a very very can you go away hold on let me let me bring you back to my question which was what about last i heard it is no problem what about a hurricane yet and putting all that aside rita cut can you hear me ok i think we lost while we get that fixed i mean to come kind of the same question with a day what about agness saying that this is so much bigger than this election and that these two men who have such history with their country they to come together and talk about what the real issues are ahead and i know that you you talk to my producer and you said that kenya is a country of contradictions how so yes first of all agree with agreements. It is time to step back and talk but it is important to emphasize that talks about peace must be preceded by justice electoral justice in this case whether the talks are led by the two gentleman whether its led by anybody else what we need to agree on is how do we have electoral justice because if you dont then well keep repeating this every five years we have a situation where every five years your vote does not count and the country comes to the brink of collapse secondly and this is something which i think is important i had the depleted president referred to a lot being a rebel leader as a person with militias i think that is reckless talk and i know dana is an Opposition Leader they are no militias if they were then theyd have been arrested by now would have been told what name they have their only people who refuse to be handed into an election that is not legitimate not to call them rebuild leaders to send police to kill them indiscriminately and meme them i think that thats unfortunate and particularly because that is even doing the opposite of what the president the Deputy President would want for this country anybody listening to the d. P. To president of a country seeing the militias and we believe as is most likely to recall rather than engage with that country i think it is unfortunate. Agnes what i what youre saying i understand it when you make you clearly make a great point about looking forward but it really does have a point that if this system is it fixed it could continue to hold back kenya from a potentially really bright future. Some one of the Biggest Challenges for kenya is mistrust of institutions and i think this is something we cannot solve by of cause and i keep saying these two gentleman sitting together we have worked so much to solve for so long to build our institution but unfortunately people do not trust and thats one of the i b c the Electoral Commission had biggest challenge according reins people are that what they did was had not had any interferences by the Political Class so one of the most important thing is how do we ensure the kenyan people trust the institution like they did with the Supreme Court when they are not all the election back in august. But we need to be careful too we dont have were still very young democracy very young economy we dont have the capacity to constantly go back to the ballot box it is not what our money i think you know politician need not say these are numbers thats their number it is what do we do we cant hold another election as rollout and his team are calling if it were too much and its too expensive for the country. And i could continue to insist on how can we ensure we have talks and talks that bring everybody to the table and just and next to this politicking amanda another calling for another election in ninety days i think is very wrong with that we cannot sustain that its certainly not sustainable i want to. Injury i want to direct this to you this is a quote that i found in the globe and mail newspaper it says kenya is so much brighter than the spectacle of the last few days future should be bright robey as a vibrant city and in essential economic financial and transportation for east and Central Africa kenyas market and free press are impressive when set against the dictatorships that failed failed states on its borders its entrepreneurs have created the worlds. Leading system of mobile money that is quite a statement quite an impressive mouthful about what kenya is. Right now a hurricane not a is is considered the winner how does he tap into that. I think the first thing is going to be going back to what ive just said we will have to learn to trust our institutions i am one of those people who is strongly opposed to conversations between two individuals because what tends to happen first you have to take you have to assume that the two individuals have the best the best interest of the country at heart thats actually asking for too much and have a country that has forty Million People and that is as good as you have just read out i think the only reason we have gotten to that point the only reason we survived the nullification a president ial election as the first african country to ever go through Something Like that the only reason we passed a constitution and you confucian time the only reason we still exist despite the tensions that exist at the moment is because gradually our democracy nine students are coming of age we have a situation where we just have to learn to trust in our institutions and where we can trust them we have to keep. Working on them until they get to the point where we can talk them we are not we are no longer a country that is going to move forward because two people have sat down or five people said on a typical start down we are a country where even us and the new breed of politicians are not willing to allow any two people whether it is the president and the fortunately to sit down and define for us what they where the continues to go we want to know that these conversations have been held within the constitution we want to know that they have been held within the station that exist and that is the problem were seeing with the opposition they want to have conversations extra constitutionally and that is what we are not going to accept because once we do that with this particular conversation then we can stop us from doing the same thing with an effect without a cause and a country is only going to have crises you must learn to work within the constitution that you have ok and to know that you have the last word but refly place because we are basically at a time that i think that the way to the way to end this is a once a third election do you think thats a good idea. Well france its not whether its a good idea or not and and. Is not whether we can afford it or not it is that the constitution allows us to go for election for as many times as it will take to get it right ok but having the ok i dont want i want to talk about iraq as a central discussion i hear what youre saying that legally thats an option but but the bottom line of what im asking you is do you think thats a good idea yes i think its a good idea and if were talking peace this is not just the absence of war this is a situation where everybody is comfortable that things are happening the right way the best idea right now is to have free free fair and legitimate elections where whoever wins will be applauded and whoever loses must accept but you cannot have that when you have a situation where you have an electoral body that is compromised when we talk of respecting institutions and institution would be respected if it is independent and it is objective there literally would be and we have one of their own who resigned that of six commissioners for them to construction from the presidency how can you respect such an institution when the ferry has won and then jessie of the opposing team that one hundred thirty about talks ive also a good there were at a time my apologies but thank you all for joining us for this discussion clearly its an ongoing issue we will continue to discuss the issue of although agnes gitau in. 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